hahaha: Good deal on the T-rex thing Just what I needed...

About your Bible thing... 90% or more of the Bible is a history book... you don't use science to refute history. The figures in the Bible all existed, there is no question. The remaining part of the Bible is more of a supernatural writing. There is no way to prove or disprove that creation occurred or that Noah's ark existed. So science can only find alternatives or try to make creation LOOK implausible. Still, it is hard to change peoples mind once they are locked in a belief...

I am sure that all the scientific evidence has disproved a truly global flood but supports a regional flood event in the MidEast in the past...

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OK, I lied... I am reading the previous posts to get cought up....I'm on page 5 so far and it's been 2 days off and on...

Damn, these are some long a$$ posts! I mean, 5 pages of posts would be enough already, but every single post here is the length of 4 normal replies. So in other words, I've probably read the equivavlent of 20 pages already... Oh well another 40-some "pages" to go.....

You may now resume your regular scheduled debate....




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I wanna use Flash for my sig but it doesn't work.

<img src=http://www.geocities.com/raydur/sig.gif>

SPITfire, I realize that the BIble would be very difficult to prove or disprove, but if it was written by a "dumbass", like Jason suggested, then it must be full of absolute bull. If that were the case, you would think that a good junk of it could be disproven.

The T-rex thing is just so obvious.. They lived for soooo long, there had to be millions of them... Not all at once mind you, but over time.

Raydur... You are the man. I can't believe you are going to read the whole thing, that is great. I'm glad that you are interested.

As far as your questions... I think it's pretty even, with a slight tip toward evolution. There are a couple die-hard Creationists, a couple die-hard agnostic Evolutionists, and at least one who agrees with St. Athanasius and believes in a Created Evolution where God planted the seeds of life, and let life grow according to plan (me).

<to hahaha> well, if you're the culmination of God's work, i'm throughly unimpressed...results like you do not belong on the resumé of a supreme being, and in any decently run universe, he would have been out on his all-powerful a$$ a long time ago....

<ducks>
<j/k>

sorry bud, had to bust your chops there... <br>

Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

Raydur: It's more of a marathon then a post... lol Good for you, although alot of the same shite is repeated over and over

hahaha: Jason's dumbass comment was too harsh... even if he doesnt believe in religion doesnt mean he has to call those who do dumbasses.

The Bible will always be impossible to prove or disprove. There are so many interpretations that all fit... we cannot be the ones to judge who indeed is correct. I do also believe (sorta) in the created evolution theory... I explained my belief a few times already no need to re-hash it

Keeper: good point there...haha

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Keeper, you're forgetting that the fleshy human is not a finished product. Life is eternal, this is just a training/proving phase of developement. I am like a diamond in the rough

I guess you are too.

Earth is a vehicle where the journey is more important than the destination. Of course once you arrive at the destination, you will be graded and then continue on to a far more interesting and enlightening journey. Perfection takes a long time to achieve (our perspective, God cares not about time).

So, just to be clear... We do not know the final outcome of God's work, we are familliar with a very small portion of unfinished business, that is all.

Actually, hahaha, Wiley Miller of the comic strip Non Sequitur did a good strip about that...it was god creating everything, and he did the heaven and earth, the land and sea, the fish and foul, the plants and animals, then he though, and went, "MAN!" then looked, and said, "I better quit now, my work is getting lame."

kinda more how i see it saying there's an uber-deity. I think if that's the case we're more of a failed mutation--a genetic cul-de-sac.
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Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

After careful consideration... Creationism.

DJ

Wow, I just ran across this, so I’m going to throw in my two cents, and then leave it at that, since there is no way I could ever catch up.

Spitfire, you originally said you were a marine science major; well I was initially a marine biology major, so I definitely see a lot of your points. I grew up in a Christian home, with a science teacher for a father. All during the week I had evolution thrown in my face, except for Sundays when it was Creationism time.

All during school, with the exception of one philosophy and religion class (which was more on phil. than theology) my classes did their best in dis-proving the Bible, and I believed it for a short amount of time, and became strictly atheist. When I got out, I switched fields and met my now wife, who was in a Pentecostal Charismatic church (basically modern evangelism, non-denominational). I originally went to humor her, and fell totally in love with my God, and haven’t looked back since. Now I’m by no means a theologian, and a relatively new born-again Christian, so I don’t know the Bible as well as I should to argue some of these points. The thing is, those that say you believe in God, but not necessarily the Bible, are hypocrites. You can’t believe in one and not the other. The Bible is Gods word, like it or not.

I asked my pastor this question when I first got back into church, since I figured he would know, and although I can’t remember everything since it was so long ago, and he said that the Bible supports a type of “Gap-theory.” Yes, theory. No more fact than the big bang. The thing is, there is no sort of feeling of time in the old testament, the first seven days talked about in Genesis 1, could have been thousands upon thousands of years. God created the animals (us), trees, the rocks, oceans, skies and us. If there is a lot of science to support evolution within the last 20-30 thousand years, then God created this world to evolve. It’s His plan, not ours. I’m sorry I can’t back a lot of this up with something more solid, but it’s just something I know, I feel. I understand both sides of the argument, and this is my side. Thank you, good day.

Oh, and to all those supporting God and his ways, keep it up, thanks.
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After doing some more thinking, and reading:

see here for what Pope John Paul II has to say about it. And this is an article that is about defending the teaching of evolution in schools.

Heck, I was going to do a summary, but the summary would be almost as long as the article. Just read it, it has a lot of points to think about, whether or not you believe them...and they are made by a very well educated man. Basically though, it's saying Evolution theory(s) are based in part on philosophy, and each part does it's...ummm...part to support the other. Basically, without one, the other fails to make sense.

I only posted again because re-reading, my other post doesn't do a whole lot for any argument, more like my past. So here you guys go, some fresh meat if this hasn't been posted.

If it has, forgive me, I am not reading all these posts <br>

another decent site <br>

project will, the hypocrite thing you speak of leaves a flaw,

jews belive in the same God as you, muslims do as well, exact same God and exact same early profits, however, they do not believe the bible is fully accurate. does that make them inferior in their beliefs to you?

same goes, i think that the bible started out God's word but over the years through too much interpritation lost it's original meaning, the words may not have changed so much, but the meanining has. that is what bugs me most about christianity, the mutation of God's word,

so with that said, i belive in God and i belive in Jesus but i do not belive in the bible, to say i am a hypocrite is not only erroneous, but also a form of one's own biggotry.

spirituality comes in many forms, none less significant then others. <br>


-----I slit the sheet the sheet I slit and on the slitted sheet i sit. there I said it.----

The original Greek and Hebrew, before the King James translation in 1611 is God's word, and I take it at that. The Bible is the bible, and unless you can read Greek and Hebrew, I'll take the KJV as an accurate translation of God's word.

With your argument you can claim the same thing about Mormans, and hell, even about Baptists. Denominations are names, and that's it. We've gotten too hung up on placing a nametag on everything we forgot what's behind it all, God. Baptists hate Catholics, Catholics hate Protestants...It doesn't matter. Sunday is the most segretated day of the entire week. Obviously things get lost in translations, they always do. But translating versus rewriting (which is what some do) is different. The mormons re-wrote things slightly so it sounds the same, but looses all meaning. Muslims have the Qur'an, not the Bible, and they have the prophet Muhammad. They believed that God spoke through Muh. and the Qur'an is the collection of what Muh. said and even some Muslims worship Muhammad as though he were a God, though the Islamic faith considers him the only prophet. In Islamic faith, the God is master, the believers are servants and slaves. Christianity is the ONLY religion where the God makes the sacrifice (Jesus), not the believer. Jews is another thing, since Jesus was himself a Jew. Either way, this could get into another debate entirely, and I'm only trying to explain myself. Oh well, debate on

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Mutations in the Bible?

We have many original manuscripts and scrolls. Some contain entire books of the Bible, which happen to be identical to what's in our current Bibles. You can't possibly deny the Bible as being the most legitimate holy book in the world. <br>



<img src="http://www.j-body.org/registry/lancer/sunsetsig.jpg">
<font size="1">Jesus said, "In the world you will have tribulation,
but cheer up, I have overcome the world (John 16:33).</font>

Project Will: So you were religious, then aetheist, then religious again. Did religion make you leave the marine science field or did that come afterward? Was it your wife that converted you and what made you made the drastic change from aetheism to devout Christianity? Do you believe in Created Evolution or literal creation? How old do you think the Earth is? I am intersted in hearing your opinion since you have had similar educational experience as I... Do you think science supports evolution or creation? I am curious to see what happened that was so profound to change you spiritually like that...

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Back to hominid bones with SPITfire. You haven't heard of these cases?

Nebraska man.

Nebraska man was heralded as an evolution anscestor of ours. Nebraska man ever had a sketch of him in the Illustrated London News! What was this great scientific discovery? A tooth, which was later found to be a pigs.

Java man.

Java man was found by Dr. Eugene DuBois. It was a skullcap, thigh-bone, and some molars. Dubois later found human skulls in the same area, showing his java man was not really a transitional link. But instead of admitting this, he his the skulls under his floorboards for over 20 years! He eventually admitted his fault.

Piltdown man.

Piltdown man was found by Charles Dawson in 1912. He was made of a jaw, 2 molars, and a fragment of a skull. In the 1950's, the it was shown to be a hoax. The teeth were filed down, and the jaw was of an orangutan.

Orce man.

Orce man was found in 1982. It was said at the time to be the oldest human remains ever found in europe. Later, they admitted it that the skull was probably from a 4-month old donkey.

There are many more exposed fakes out there. There are no clear hominids. It's all imagination. There's nothing to go on. It's just like UFOs. There are many drawings of them, but is there any real evidence of these disc shaped flying contraptions? It's all imagination. <br>



<img src="http://www.j-body.org/registry/lancer/sunsetsig.jpg">
<font size="1">Jesus said, "In the world you will have tribulation,
but cheer up, I have overcome the world (John 16:33).</font>

I had already left the marine bio field after first finding a hard time finding a job I liked that paid what I wanted to, and went back to school to study drafting and engineering, which is the field I currently work at. I met my wife while eating at a restaurant, went out with her and decided to visit her church to humor her a bit, and to see what it was like since she'd talk so highly about it. Granted, I wasn't a bad atheist, typical of those who believe straight out about Psalms 14:1, I didn't drink, had just quit smoking, and had taken a new vow to abstain from sex until marriage (all this before I met her). She was extremely devout, so I doubted it would work, but I went nonetheless. When I was at Church, it was quite different than my episcopalian upbringing. But something hit me in that service, and I can't really explain what it was in words, just powerful emotion, the sudden sense that I wasn't living my life right, you know...sort of like the atypical story. I figured I knew what it was, but I went home and pretty much cried the entire night, talked to the pastor about it later. It was just weird for me...only way to describe it looking back, but a good weird. It wasn't my wife that converted me though, it was me.

I believe that God created all life, but that life does evolve. I believe in Adam and Eve, original parents and all that stuff. I believe the Bible is God's word, infallable. I asked my pastor all this when I converted my life, and like I said above, I don't have enough of a theological background to back any of it up with smart quotes, or Bible translation, or science proving Bible, or whatever. It was something about a Gap theory, and although the earth is supposedly 6,000 years old, it's how long the year is that gets me. Mercury's year is way shorter than Jupiters year. I think that in time as we know it now, it's obviously a lot older, but not "date-able" if you will. The Gap theory went something like there is a huge amount of time that is un-accounted for in the bible, which is where modern sciences finds of ancient fossils comes into play. I honestly believe that science and religion are close to a middle ground on evolution. That evolution has basis in philosphy and religion, that you can't explain fully one, without the other. There is way too much science out there to say that there is not some evolution, but I don't believe that's where human beings as we know it started. Evolution in my mind is probably not the same way Darwin would have defined it. Darwin once stated something to the effect that if you can prove that any complex organ exists which could not have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, then his theory would break down completely.
He didn't know as much as we know now, and although science is still an absolutely amazing field, there is no way I could go back into biology, since evolution is such a strong part of it. Some systems are much more complex than he knew then. The way I'm looking at it, if I take the time to study one organism, prokaryote, or whathaveyou, I find it very hard to not see an ultimate designer in the way things work. Right now, that's my opinion, that's what I believe. If I had enough evidence to back it up, it wouldn't be theory anymore, neither would evolution givin enough evidence. It's just what I see, how I feel. And that I can't explain, but I've felt it enough since starting church, opened up my soul enough, allowing God in, that the world seems much brighter to me, life seems brighter, I'm not as depressed anymore. It seems I have answers for life again.

Sorry it got so long. Oh well. I just wish I had more knowledge than I do so I could debate better Someone like hahahaha, who seems rather intelligent, or on the complete opposite side of the spectrum, even though I don't believe in what he does, KOTL. <br>

Project: interesting... but do you reject all that you learned in your marine science background? I am guessing you are still open minded to evolution but you believe God has a part in it... with a science background I can't see how you could believe in a 6000 year old earth or a global flood... its all up to interpretation, as you say.

Lancer: I agree with those, but what about Australopithacus, Homo species, and Neanderthals in which we have several specimens and not just tiny fragments? They are all real bones and not parts of other species glued together. Like UFO's, Loch ness, there are hoaxes for everything but then there are others that may be true...

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Wow thanks Project Will, that was nice of you to say. In truth, I have a very good reading comprehention rate, and that is about it. I am not some super intellect, I just understand what I read. I thank God for this gift, it allows me to learn from other's expirience. From what I have seen, it seems some people have difficulty in this area. On top of that, I am extremely curious. Sometimes that get's me into trouble, but I always learn something.

You have had a fantastic expirience that not many are so priviledged to have. I am moved by God more and more frequently as time goes on.. For me, there is no doubt. I have also had a couple near death expiriences and I think that has had a profound impact. It is very difficult to explain, but there is a certain comfortable peace, warm and fuzzy, no fear, just comfort. God has ways of totally overwhelming with a feeling of love, of blowing your mind with detail, amazing with beauty. I have a priest friend who I think wishes he could have my expiriences, and yet he has had many of his own. When I speak of things I have felt or envisioned, he gets what he calls "a wash". He tells me that his doctorine says that it is an indication that what I am saying is true and real, not just a story. It's not all sun and roses though, sometimes God shows terrible things, but they are invariably the folly of mankind. I had horrible, terrifying visions immediately before and after 911, scince then, there has only been comfort. I saw the Earth destroyed in my mind following Bush's "with us or against us" speach. These are not nessesarily literal, but I knew that thousands would die, I could almost feel it. I ramble, but religious expirience is so powerful that sometimes you cannot shutup about it. When you said you cried after you expirience, that resonated with me, and I was compelled to tell you some of what I have expirienced.

I do not attend church, and have not had any formal religous indoctournation at all, and yet I can discuss scripture competantly with my friend the priest, so I think it's obvious God wants me to learn from him. Just the other day I had to causion him regarding some of his feelings toward a new role he has withing the diocese. He began to talk of power over others, but was tempered by my words when I asked him how J.C. would have liked his last few words... he he, I love that, and that is my problem. I should not revel in other people's weaknesses. I am glad that I am actually able to help others, and I should be happy with that. I will mature further I'm sure.

Back on topic. For those looking for a great explaination of Creation and it's interaction with evolution, I repeat, look to St. Athanasius. 1600+ years ago, he was an incredibly intellegent church father who wrote extensively on the "seeds of life" planted by God, and how they evolved into the world as we know it. Great stuff. The first 300 years or so after Christs passion produced some incredible intellect within the early Christian church. Thomas Aquinas, Athanasius, Albert The Great, and others. The story of St. Francis will also serve to blow your mind.

All of this coming from an electronic engineer (specialized in robotics) turned computer system engineer, who took nothing but maths and sciences thoughout his scholastic carrer.

Ever notice that the most beatiful gemstones come from the most arrid an harsh climates? Could it be that God realized that peoples of that area may never be able to gaze in wonder at a snowflake, so instead they recived opal (or other cool rock) as a source of amazement?

as you can see, english grammer and spelling are not my strongpoints

as are they mine? hahahaha? my points are conceptual vision (i can see in 4 dimensions easily, and 5 with some meditation--although i don't know if i'll ever be able to see the 6th one Stephen Hawking can) and the ability to distill everything down to it's core fucntion. granted, a 168 IQ doesn't hurt either. perhaps why i like debating with you--you provide a good challenge.

And will...don't feel bad that you don't belive in what i do--most people can't--or aren't willing to see the far side of shadow. <br>

Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

KOTL, oh don't worry, I don't feel bad in the least for that, only for you.

Spitfire: As I said, I can't completely dismiss science, it has too strong of a past with me, I don't believe that science is making things up to dis-prove that there is a God, and conversely, I don't believe that God would try to dis-prove science. I feel God gave us the science that allows us to do what we are able to do. I totally believe that God can heal (I had blew out my knee quite badly playing b-ball, went to the hospital, the next day I was determined to go to church, crutches or not, and walked out of there on my own free will, with no pain), but you have to believe it, you can't just ask for it...which is why we have doctors, medicine, for those who can't be healed spiritually. 6,000 years as we know is definately hard to believe, even for the hard core Christian. Like I said, I think there is a huge misinterpretation of time, and a large gap of time that is unaccounted for, which would make the earth far older. I definately believe that there was a global flood, and I have read somewhere online evidences of that, but can't recall where. Yes, it is open to interpretation, and sometimes I do still struggle with it, I admit it.

hahaha: Near death experiences would probably do that to you. The more I'm in Church, and witness what I witness, the more I could never deny God, no matter how big my upbringing was. My personal healing (above), and love. I don't see how anyone who can love, can do so without God. I mean, obviously to me, God is love, which is why I feel so strongly about it but everytime I look into my wifes eyes, there will never be any doubt that He had (and has) a part in us. May I ask why you don't attend church? Sometimes people need that fellowship with one another, to help them grow spiritually. Oh, and sorry for the digress.

In conclusion () I believe that we as a people have evolved, but not from apes...from another "species" of upright walking homo sapiens. Although I can't deny that we show a close link to chimps, and maybe to a lesser degree orangutans, I can't see how God would allow a being created in his image to have those hairy bastards as our "fathers." And, looking at it from another angle, if God is a monkey-like creature (only hypothetically, for the point of this statement), I don't see how, him being infallable and all, would allow us to evolve to something that in no way ressembles himself.
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What about this: all of the hominids existed in the past and evolved from Austrolpithacus to Neandethals... but in the case of Homo sapiens God placed the first two individuals (Adam and Eve) on Earth. Sorta like we were the "special" species God created in his image. We then outcompeted and wiped out the Neanderthals over time. All other life evolved separate from God over billions of years. I believe that God created the Big Bang or something like it because someone had to create the matter that became the universe. He created evolution too but did not directly involve himself in it.

Project: lol, I will never believe God was a hairy ape... even if I do believe in evolution...

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don't worry about me, will, God, saying he does exist, hasn't found a way to kill me yet. I think he's slacking on the job. . either that, or a heretic like me is part of the master plan.

Moreso, on your statement <i>I don't believe that science is making things up to dis-prove that there is a God, and conversely, I don't believe that God would try to dis-prove science.</i>

God may not be, but his followers are. I'm more worried about God's follwers than i am about God. Jesus may love his follwers, but everyone else thinks that they are pr|cks. (note, not ALL, but the fanatical ones).

not to pre-empt Hahaha, but i can see how someone can love god and not go to church. Organized religion is, well, an organization, and within any organization there is corruption. God, in the was christians define him, would not love you less for staying at home to worship him as opposed to going to a church to do so--much like a Wiccan can call upon thier powers within city or in nature.

If i ever made the return to Christianity, which i know i won't--i've been away from it for 14 years and have not looked back since, and feel no need to go back to it. But say per some odd twist-of-fate that i do go back, i won't go to church. Why? i have this personality quirk that organized religions detest, and that it i like to form my own opinions on the world based upon my perspectives, and you can't really do that marching lockstep to the dogma handed to you by some "holy man"



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Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

Hmmm... How do I answer this question... Why don't I attend Church?

I mean no disrespect... The really really short answer: I get extremely frustrated with sheeple.

That said, you deserve a better explaination.

Everyone I have ever met inside a church has been a kind, nice person deserving of some respect (I think, they could be master decievers). Some are a bit smug, but that is because they don't know how to deal with a long haired, T-shirt wearing, young (looking) person. I forgive them. The problems with churches for me have been dogma. I don't mean the fact that church is dogmatic, ritual needs dogma, and church is a ritual. I haven't found a church that agrees with the Bible. That's it. I also feel that I am always in church, as in, everything is within God's domain, therefore everywhere is the house of the Lord. There is no place inaccessable. I kinda want to go to church to be honest. I have talked with literally hundreds of believers from various faiths (not just Christian). They just don't seem to get it. It makes me really sad sometimes. I have had Mormons come to my door that were the nicest guys you could ever meet. Extremely devout in their faith, willing to travel hundreds of miles from home to spead the word. They think they are Christian, but they are not. It is sad. I was raised Presbyterian, but they believe in dual destiny. I do not beleive that God would allow any child to born evil, destined to corrupt and destroy. I know that we have a history that is full of very bad people, but I don't believe for a second they were born that way. They may have had genetic or other issues that lead them to evil, but they didn't begin life as an inheritly evil creature. To me anyway. Lately I find myself drawn to Catholicism, but I still have reluctance. I need to read more. The church I wish I could attend would be the very early Christian movement in the 200s or 300s. The stuff written in those times is truely increadable. That's why I'm drawn to the original church. I even have a library card at the seminary.