HAHA, another thread with prove your right because I cant prove your wrong in it on JBO, wow, never saw that coming! And from our favorite JBO soap opera member. HAHAHA I love JBO. Theres less drama in the loser infested meth house down the road from my work.
As for Bill- Thank you for everything you've done for the J platform, and know this fighting with JBO-ers is like arguing with a 4 year old, its pointless. Most of these guys have more time on JBO arguing about J's than actually driving/ working on their J's.
Also, all of this just makes me want to buy a Hahn kit more, if anything the fact that he hasn't let the JBO drama train run him over like happens to most people and vendors on here, make me willing ot pny up money for one of his kits. which are awesome, I helped install one of their kits on my local friends neon and it was incredibly easy to bolt on, and made tons of power on a stock tune (dont ask me to prove it vince not my car, nor do I know any specs. on dodge neon workings, and I dont have the time. lol) All I know is that thing whooped the azz of my buddies sr20det swapped 240sx with built engine and a custom tune, and that 240 is fast IMO, it eats up my mostly stock cavi. And dont let my friend know this but his neon was dogshizz slow before he boosted via Hahns kit. HAHA
And I think Bill's numerous customers with his kits bolted on with or without Portfueler's running very fast at the track, example John from Oregons orange cavi, says lots about his credibility, Bill Hahn Jr. knows his @!#$ people and wouldn't lie to garner sales IMO. And thats where his years of experience and immense success count against a hand full of people on the internet with no professional background experince as proof.
QWK LN2 (aka ImPhat0260) does have experience though, as hes proved by tuning more than one JBO car to perfection. So your definetely not lumped in wiht the people in the above statement sir.^^
@ original Thread poster-Would I rock a stock tune on any car with a bolt on kit, hell no, but thats because tuning is always the best option, how you go about it or how you tune it is up to you.
Scorpio1 bishes... funny you try and pull Ryan out and not make him look bad. He and I agree on this 100%.
So Bill you are talking PE delay then. As I and Ryan have both said it is just a delay. There is more than 1 part to make a car kick into PE delay. Funny my dad's truck had no issues going into PE and it is a 2005. I guess it does not count, but yet all your testing you have does.
Monday I will find the post made by PJ that he did testing to prove the PE delay did not make a difference on the car going into PE. This was on his 2004 daily driver. I guess that wont count either.
Bill I have said on this forum and to people many times that Hahn products are top notch. I do believe this. I have seen the custom Ecotec manifold with external wastegate you guys made. Had it in my hands. It was awesome. When people ask me about boosting and about buying your products. I tell them it depends on what they want and what they can afford. If they want a simple bolt on kit get yours. If they want to pick and choose parts, and maybe save cash build a kit.
My problem with this post is you claim it is safe for all L61's to run 14:7:1 AFR's on 9 psi. yet you claim if your going to tune you should tune to a better AFR. To me and others this makes no sense.
My problem with you Bill. You think your better than everyone. You have great experience and knowledge no one doubts that, but it does not make you better than anyone. It makes you knowledgeable.
Bill I'm asking for proof. The kind I can read. Publications talking about going leaner. Tuners (other than yourself) saying it is safer to go leaner. That kind of stuff. Talking about PE Delay is not proof.
I will also get ahold of my friends 2009 Silverado and download the file and log it with my wideband to see what it does.
Ryan. My personal cell took a crap can't get into my address boo or anything. PM me your number, and I will call you from my work phone.
Time to board the plan til later.
FU Tuning
Not a Expert per Bill Hahn Jr. wrote:Scorpio1 bishes... funny you try and pull Ryan out and not make him look bad. He and I agree on this 100%.
So Bill you are talking PE delay then. As I and Ryan have both said it is just a delay. There is more than 1 part to make a car kick into PE delay. Funny my dad's truck had no issues going into PE and it is a 2005. I guess it does not count, but yet all your testing you have does.
Monday I will find the post made by PJ that he did testing to prove the PE delay did not make a difference on the car going into PE. This was on his 2004 daily driver. I guess that wont count either.
Bill I have said on this forum and to people many times that Hahn products are top notch. I do believe this. I have seen the custom Ecotec manifold with external wastegate you guys made. Had it in my hands. It was awesome. When people ask me about boosting and about buying your products. I tell them it depends on what they want and what they can afford. If they want a simple bolt on kit get yours. If they want to pick and choose parts, and maybe save cash build a kit.
My problem with this post is you claim it is safe for all L61's to run 14:7:1 AFR's on 9 psi. yet you claim if your going to tune you should tune to a better AFR. To me and others this makes no sense.
My problem with you Bill. You think your better than everyone. You have great experience and knowledge no one doubts that, but it does not make you better than anyone. It makes you knowledgeable.
Bill I'm asking for proof. The kind I can read. Publications talking about going leaner. Tuners (other than yourself) saying it is safer to go leaner. That kind of stuff. Talking about PE Delay is not proof.
I will also get ahold of my friends 2009 Silverado and download the file and log it with my wideband to see what it does.
Ryan. My personal cell took a crap can't get into my address boo or anything. PM me your number, and I will call you from my work phone.
Time to board the plan til later.
x 1841797913969146931691419631
hmmm bill, if i hated your company so much, whats this post say?.....
http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=40&i=170537&t=170537 (BTW its the first post after the original poster...) myself and john which we are actually agreeing which is odd, not that ive had a huge problem with him, we like your products, your attitude is what comes off bad.
and why would i do all the leg work for you to prove you are right? you have enough spare time to do it, you know the websites to link.
Not a Expert per Bill Hahn Jr. wrote:Scorpio1 bishes... funny you try and pull Ryan out and not make him look bad. He and I agree on this 100%.
Credit where its due, didnt want him to assume I was taking a shot at him, he's proven his metal in the J world time and time again. I was however taking a shot at all the people like me whose only knowledge comes from learning by myself with no training or specialization and wokring on ym own car. LOL
Self burn, haha.
Ryan's cool. He knows how to make a point without also bursting into tears
Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft
World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com
So who here has bursting into tears? I have seen no crying going on here. Just avoiding questions.
FU Tuning
Idk about anyone, but on my 02 ecotec anything over 12:0 afr I saw at least 2 degrees of knock. This was from 8psi to 18 psi
LE61T PTE6262 Powered 
Sometimes I wonder how much different the car world and my involvement in it would be if I didn't have Hahn at the end of it. So for this post, think of me as just an unbiased enthusiast, because after all that is what I truly am.
Fact is, there is rarely truth but only perception which unfortunately gets us all in to trouble andI have learned this more in the past 6 months than I have my 21 years of existence. I experienced it in high school, the "gear-heads" of which I would have loved to hang out and talk cars with never even gave me the time of day. Why? Because my name is Adam Hahn and daddy owns a turbo shop and im so full of myself and think im god's gift to the teenage motor enthusiast world. When the opposite is true. I know what I know and that's it. Do I know as much about cars in general than half the people on this forum? Hell no, and I would never claim that. But what I do know is my personal experience with our Sunfire and what I have personally put that car through.
I am not above anyone on this forum and Vince has stated my persona a few times as such in this thread:
http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=40&i=170649&t=170649&p=3 .
I have put our Sunfire through hell and back in numerous ways. At 17 years old, I was fortunate enough to be driving a mid 11 second FWD car. I had just over a year of driving experience total in my life time, and I made my mistakes both on and off the track. I remember that 18:1 AFR pass at Norwalk. There was also another JBO member there that video'ed the 11.4 run just after that hairball pass (forget the name sorry). Also, I managed to shift from 2nd to 1st at Byron and ran the engine up to almost 10,000 RPM... Not a single problem. Hell, just last October we were testing a new head gasket that inadvertently blocked an oil passage to the head and ran a 10.87 and a 10.7x with no oil to the head before we lost a few lifters and in turn lost compression in cyl #4. Does all that have to do with AFR or PE delays? No, but what it demonstrates is the resiliance of the L61 and the advancement in technology from only a few years ago.
As far as this thread goes, John and ImPhat, if someone wants to advertise THEIR kits as safe at 14.7 AFR so be it. It's their company and their reputation and if the information they provide is wrong than it's their hide and no one elses. I have not read the Hahn RaceCraft Jbody turbo kit instructions/manual in awhile but I do not remember reading any where that 14.7 AFR is a must and you may not deviate. Is running lower AFR's safer? Yes, but we also know that in order to make the most power, we want to run our cars as lean as possible. Right on the brink of knock if you will.
It's not fair to condemn someone for acknowledging their own achievements when one puts their proclaimed knowledge of a subject in question. Facts are facts. If Fetter came on here and said, in my experience with the 2.4 I would not go above 12 AFR. I would probably listen to every word he says as he is the first to put as much power as he has through one regardless of who he is or what he stands for.
There is always a lemon, in every MASS manufactured item. If you think every piece of equipment that comes off the GM assembly line is 100% rated at the exact same rating as every other equal part, you are sadly mistaken. Hence warranties. Sometimes you get the bad egg with a motor that would have blown anyway regardless of boost or not.
I have never heard of running a stock motor at 15 PSI before the L61 and then Ryne Hoover proved you can beat the piss out of your car as a DD and put over 200 passes on the car before damaging parts (can't remember what failed). Hell, even the Sunfire ran 400 WHP with Eagle Rods, JE Pistons and Ferrea valve springs, no more no less. I think you mentioned somewhere that you cannot deny that the ecotec series (L61 specifically) is a very strong series. So why can't you believe someone claiming their own parts as capable of a given AFR? If I told you 6 years ago that GM would make a 1400 HP version of this motor would you have believed me? I know I wouldn't have yet it exists.
This reminds me of the is there a god debate. The Religous believer (Bill Hahn Jr.) claims there is a god (14.7 AFR with HRC kits). The disbeliever (John and others) claims it's not possible to have a god (14.7 AFR with HRC kits). My take? It's hard to believe there is a god without proof because I like facts. However, I can not disprove their is a god, so there is no sense in telling the believer he is wrong.
When a scientist makes a hypothesis such as HRC turbokits are safe at 14.7 AFR, he does not make the experiment to PROVE his statement. He makes the experiment to DISPROVE the statement and if he can't, then he takes it as truth. Why? Because doing an experiment once and having it work and claiming it as truth is as faulty as saying lightbulbs act as light catapults. Doing an experiement and disproving it means the statement is wrong no matter what. (most experiements are never 100% accurate due to the thousands of variables involved) like those involved in boosting a car.
Taking those analogies, it would seem to me someone who doesn't believe in a theory would have to be the one to DISPROVE it before they can proclaim it as gospel or lies.
(Sorry for length, I am 5 pages behind the ball)
Street-Legal 2003 Sunfire 10.58 @ 139 MPH
Adam Hahn wrote:
As far as this thread goes, John and ImPhat, if someone wants to advertise THEIR kits as safe at 14.7 AFR so be it. It's their company and their reputation and if the information they provide is wrong than it's their hide and no one elses. I have not read the Hahn RaceCraft Jbody turbo kit instructions/manual in awhile but I do not remember reading any where that 14.7 AFR is a must and you may not deviate. Is running lower AFR's safer? Yes, but we also know that in order to make the most power, we want to run our cars as lean as possible. Right on the brink of knock if you will.
Let me start off by reinforcing that I am not trying to hurt the character of Bill Hahn Jr, Hahn RacCraft, or the Hahn name in general. I have met you many times Adam, and I think you are a standup guy all BS aside.
As for your statement above, you are 100% correct if we were talking about HAHN kits and only HAHN kits. If you re read the whole thread, you will see that this did not start out as that type of scenerio. This is why I asked the question/scenerio as I did. My main concern here is not about the people runnining your kits. Its about the people who build their own (maybe can't afford your kit), and then read Bill's statement about being ok to run this lean under boost. Lets face it, Bill is a very intellegent man (in all seriousness), and some people may take every word as "gospel".. If what they built was not in terms of quality and have the proper fuel mods, its going to go into meltdown mode. This is what I fear!
Adam Hahn wrote:
It's not fair to condemn someone for acknowledging their own achievements when one puts their proclaimed knowledge of a subject in question. Facts are facts. If Fetter came on here and said, in my experience with the 2.4 I would not go above 12 AFR. I would probably listen to every word he says as he is the first to put as much power as he has through one regardless of who he is or what he stands for.
You are right, Facts are Facts. Fact is, I did all the tuning on Brandon's car. I agree with your statement here, but whether its an L61, LD9, or even an LN2, they all started out as a naturally aspirated engine, that in all reality we have all been breaking records with as they were never designed to have been put through the abuse that "we" have put them through. Now, back to your passes with the crazy 18:1 afr... What does your sunfire have that that 80% of the other cars on here not have? My answer is forged internals. Now, while this does not mean it is indestructable, it does mean it will take the abuse better than a stock bottom end, which in fact most people have on here.
Adam Hahn wrote:
There is always a lemon, in every MASS manufactured item. If you think every piece of equipment that comes off the GM assembly line is 100% rated at the exact same rating as every other equal part, you are sadly mistaken. Hence warranties. Sometimes you get the bad egg with a motor that would have blown anyway regardless of boost or not.
110% agreed!
Adam Hahn wrote:
I have never heard of running a stock motor at 15 PSI before the L61 and then Ryne Hoover proved you can beat the piss out of your car as a DD and put over 200 passes on the car before damaging parts (can't remember what failed). Hell, even the Sunfire ran 400 WHP with Eagle Rods, JE Pistons and Ferrea valve springs, no more no less. I think you mentioned somewhere that you cannot deny that the ecotec series (L61 specifically) is a very strong series. So why can't you believe someone claiming their own parts as capable of a given AFR? If I told you 6 years ago that GM would make a 1400 HP version of this motor would you have believed me? I know I wouldn't have yet it exists.
I can relate to this as well. I remember how many people said I was wasting my time with the LN2, and that I would never make any power out of it. I was in the neighborhood of 300whp with a stock bottom end LN2 ! But then again , the tune was spot on, and I did not care if it went. I wanted to see what it could take, and I found the limits. I found the weaknesses and I saw the potential! This has helped me give others advise on their LN2 builds.
Adam Hahn wrote:
This reminds me of the is there a god debate. The Religous believer (Bill Hahn Jr.) claims there is a god (14.7 AFR with HRC kits). The disbeliever (John and others) claims it's not possible to have a god (14.7 AFR with HRC kits). My take? It's hard to believe there is a god without proof because I like facts. However, I can not disprove their is a god, so there is no sense in telling the believer he is wrong.
When a scientist makes a hypothesis such as HRC turbokits are safe at 14.7 AFR, he does not make the experiment to PROVE his statement. He makes the experiment to DISPROVE the statement and if he can't, then he takes it as truth. Why? Because doing an experiment once and having it work and claiming it as truth is as faulty as saying lightbulbs act as light catapults. Doing an experiement and disproving it means the statement is wrong no matter what. (most experiements are never 100% accurate due to the thousands of variables involved) like those involved in boosting a car.
Taking those analogies, it would seem to me someone who doesn't believe in a theory would have to be the one to DISPROVE it before they can proclaim it as gospel or lies.
(Sorry for length, I am 5 pages behind the ball)
I understand where you are going with this, thus why I gave my scenero earlier. I am not a "disbeliever", but pointing out that there are misleading statements, and a lack of evidence to prove the theory to be a solid reality.
P&P Tuning
420.5whp / 359.8wtq
QWK LN2 (aka ImPhat0260) wrote:[As for your statement above, you are 100% correct if we were talking about HAHN kits and only HAHN kits. If you re read the whole thread, you will see that this did not start out as that type of scenerio. This is why I asked the question/scenerio as I did. My main concern here is not about the people runnining your kits. Its about the people who build their own (maybe can't afford your kit), and then read Bill's statement about being ok to run this lean under boost.
HAHN turbosystems are what I was addressing, as shown below. I was careful to point out that this is only relative to Hahn kits, on many occasions.
Reprinted from OP's first post:
Blk04turbo wrote:Hey guys,
So since the 03.5+ Ecotecs have that crappy GM engineering with the Power Enrichment Mode, Closed Loop, 14.7:1 B.S., what other options is a person able to take besides the 2 main approaches? (Re-flash, and HP Tuners)
Well, seeing as how I'm one of the HAHN Customers that is seeing...14.7:1 AFR's, I've been searching, and searching........and searching through the forums for answers.
Now Bill Hahn Jr. (me!) enters the thread:
Bill Hahn Jr. wrote:It's not too much trouble to get the earlier program flashed in, and not be locked. Some of our customers (thus indicating HAHN) have gone in that direction. We don't do it here, no.
For what it's worth, the 14.7:1 AFR at Stage I or II boost levels has not proven to produce troublesome detonation on 93 octane...
Bill Hahn Jr. wrote:...the information presented is pretty targeted. If someone tries to transfer it to a different type of engine or application, they are mis-applying the info, and I strongly advise against same.
Bill Hahn Jr. wrote:I said it is Proven OK to run a Hahn RaceCraft TurboSystem-equipped L61 at up to 8-9 PSI boost with a 14.7:1 AFR. Unless the engine you have seen knock was identically equipped, with our product, you do not have an actual instance of exception to my statement.
Bill Hahn Jr. wrote:The point we are addressing in this thread is that the 14.7:1 WOT AFR achieved at 8-9 PSI boost on 2004 and later cars equipped with our turbosystem does not present the "horrible" condition alluded to in the first post.
Bill Hahn Jr. wrote:You present a very odd hypothetical here, not at all representative of the setup in question. The setup in question of course, is the Hahn RaceCraft TurboSystem for L61,
Bill Hahn Jr. wrote:
Establishing Safe Operation of the Hahn RaceCraft Turbosystem for L61 Cavalier-Sunfire
Equipped with Hahn-provided fuel system upgrades including Injectors, FMU, and Inline Pump
Up to 8-9 PSI Boost
93 Octane Fuel
PE Delay Left Active by customer who has not yet updated flash, so engine stays in Closed Loop and 14.7:1AFR at WOT
(Note: Hahn system instructions direct that flash be changed on these cars to disable PE delay, and thus achieve a richer mixture for the best safety in all conditions)
Bill Hahn Jr. wrote:Oops. Misquote there. I've never maintained this is "best"...merely proven (via expert research and case histories) acceptable for those who run 8-9 PSI boost with 93 Octane fuel on our Hahn TurboSystem for Cavalier and Sunfire where the customers have not reflashed the PCM to eliminate PE delay.
There's more, but I'll stop there. Not trying to dog you, but this aspect seemed pretty clear to me.
Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft
World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com
QWK LN2 (aka ImPhat0260) wrote:You are right, Facts are Facts. Fact is, I did all the tuning on Brandon's car. I agree with your statement here, but whether its an L61, LD9, or even an LN2, they all started out as a naturally aspirated engine, that in all reality we have all been breaking records with as they were never designed to have been put through the abuse that "we" have put them through. Now, back to your passes with the crazy 18:1 afr... What does your sunfire have that that 80% of the other cars on here not have? My answer is forged internals. Now, while this does not mean it is indestructable, it does mean it will take the abuse better than a stock bottom end, which in fact most people have on here.
Yes my engine had forged internals, and lower compression which would make detonation less probable. You're right, it's not a direct comparison, but where it was safer with compression, it was much more dangerous with boost levels (27 PSI vs 8 PSI). Fact is, the spark plugs showed no signs of knock and that is where the true proof is (if no internals were damaged obviously). It's merely a statement of the strength of these motors and their resistance to detonation.
I understand your concern with people mistaking Bill's word as true for all setups. However, in Bill's (at least) first 3 posts on this thread he did refer to his kits in one way or another. So to set straight the confusion... the 14.7 AFR Bill has mentioned refers to his own HRC turbokits.
Street-Legal 2003 Sunfire 10.58 @ 139 MPH
Quote:
I understand your concern with people mistaking Bill's word as true for all setups. However, in Bill's (at least) first 3 posts on this thread he did refer to his kits in one way or another. So to set straight the confusion... the 14.7 AFR Bill has mentioned refers to his own HRC turbokits.
Sorry but a Hah kit or not on a L61 it is not safe to run those AFR's. There is nothing that special about the Hahn kits.
Now me saying that is not talking down about a Hahn kit. They are well made and are very nice, BUT there is not secret ingrident in them no one else has.
FU Tuning
Well, the point is that we are only speaking of the testing and results proven with the Hahn system. We cannot speak for any other combination, as we've not tested anything else.
Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft
World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com
this will probably be considered irrelevant to this topic, this car is not boosted but an L61 it has, this is a datalog of my car with a fcuked FPR and weak fuel pump running about 18:1AFR, you can see the injectors on almost 100% duty trying to keep up, a fair amount of timing advance and no KR at all at almost 7000rpm. I was trying to read through the thread, kind of stopped after a couple pages and am not looking to take sides or join any 'discussion' that may be occurring but I wanted to show my 'proof' as it were that L61's 'can' show a superb resistance to knock.
BTW the 'timing' column is degrees over stock maps.
Quote:
FMU's aren't made for idle & part throttle, they clamp the fuel line to add pressure when in boost mainly which you definitely wouldn't want a stock afr(14.7:1) while in boost.
-Bill@hptuners
LOL, now thats funny. I would never run my LD9, eco, or SRT-4 leaner than about 11.6-11.7, and I'm at 4000ft.
-Garrett
HP Tuners | Garrett T3/T04B | 2.5" Charge Pipes | 2.5" Downpipe | 650 Injectors | HO Manifold | Addco front/rear | Motor Mounts | HKS SSQV | Spec stage 3 | AEM UEGO Wideband | Team Green LSD | FMIC | 2.3 cams | 2.3 oil pump swap | 280WHP | Now ECOTECED
Wow....I was one of the ones that helped Bill find this 14.7AFR issue, and a halfway solution to it. It can be run there, but shouldn't.
I used to race cars, now I race myself.
5K PB: 24:50
10K PB: 54:26
oh dear.
Built&Boosted moar
04 Cavalier Turbo r.i.p my baby
2nd place 2009 GM tuner bash qwick 8--holla
