believe it or not I got it all on ebay
crank and rods = $600
pistons = $300
sleeves = $500
just gotta be patient and know what to look for =P
not to mention I have a few ecos I've collected over the summer to mess around with
when the build is completed I'll do a final tally of costs.. I don't think its going to be too terribly expensive
Before you go any further I would suggest giving Ray Bates (Bates Engineering) a call and have a talk with him. Here at our shop we are building two eco's this winter for 500+whp. I have talked to Ray at length about this and this is what he has to say..... He was saying that Eagle rods will brake above 400hp and he would never use them in a build above 400, he recommends Dier rods. Stock sleves are only good to 400hp as you know along with the crank. Above 400hp the cyclinders have to be sleeved as well as the top of the cyclinders should be o-ringed. A cometic head gasket should be in your plans for sure as well as some ARP head studs. I'm just wondering why you didn't go with Bates originally, you can get a full race block that is sleeved, o-ringed and ready for assembly for about $1500.
Quoth the Raven 'Nevermore
raven@accesswave.ca
Raven Autosports
55 McQuade Lake Cres,
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
(902) 850-3330
10.82@132
raven wrote:Before you go any further I would suggest giving Ray Bates (Bates Engineering) a call and have a talk with him. Here at our shop we are building two eco's this winter for 500+whp. I have talked to Ray at length about this and this is what he has to say..... He was saying that Eagle rods will brake above 400hp and he would never use them in a build above 400, he recommends Dier rods. Stock sleves are only good to 400hp as you know along with the crank. Above 400hp the cyclinders have to be sleeved as well as the top of the cyclinders should be o-ringed. A cometic head gasket should be in your plans for sure as well as some ARP head studs. I'm just wondering why you didn't go with Bates originally, you can get a full race block that is sleeved, o-ringed and ready for assembly for about $1500.
Unfortunately I disagree with some of your points. Tony from CNFX and I did some heavy researching a 2 years ago or so ago when he and I had planned to build a my Ecotec. We spoke with Eagle several times and they have used their eagle rods to 700 hp and said thats where they would stop going. I even personally know of 2 motor builds with eagle rods that have more, a turbo integra type R with 580 whp and a turbo 240sx ka with 460 whp. Him and I had planned for 550 on my car, but unfortunately he had closed his shop down and I went on with my own, budget build. The stock crank, and sleeves are very capable of more then 400 hp. As for the head gaskets Cometics are junk with the ecotec, I know of several people who have used them, and they have failed to seal. If you must upgrade your headgasket, go with an LSJ head gasket. 3 Layer MLS Gasket. I think I know of one person who used the cometic and it worked out, and that was hyspy, I may be wrong. Sleeving the block and going for 500 is more of a better safe then sorry thing but is not absolutely necessary. I don't think hahn even has their block sleeved and didn't they just throw down like 500?
Thats what I have learned from my long research and I did a @!#$ ton of it.
I don't want to make this a pissing match and am not going off on you, just saying what I have learned. I greatly respect you and PJ
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Thursday, November 22, 2007 6:54 AM
LE61T PTE6262 Powered 
adam hahn has steel sleeves in his block. the stock sleeves according to gm are supposed to be good for 700hp, but the build book has you do the sleeves at 600hp as a play it safe move
I'm not going to argue with you at all man, I am just repeating what I was told to me by the foremost expert on the eco IMO. Remember Ray Bates is the one who designed and builds every part that goes into any of the GM backed NHRA drag cars. He is also the one who designed every part for the GM performance catalog. If you remember back a few years when GM did all the testing on the eco braking pretty much every part, it was Ray who actually did all of that testing. Now I'm not saying that going the other way won't work but for how long? Also I'm always skeptical of Eagle since I have seen their cranks snap in half in a lot of Honda builds over the years. Here are some pics from one that was only putting out 403whp. When a group of guys from Honda-Tech (about 10 people) complained to Eagle they got nowhere with it all, they were basicly told too bad. Others have reported that the lobes of the crank are out of round and some people have had to get the cranks turned just to install them in the engine. Now I haven't heard of any Eagle rod failure other than from Ray Bates himself but if this is happening to their cranks it makes me wonder.
As for the Cometic head gaskets we here haven't had any issues with them at all. I run one in my 3800 and never have had an issues. We also put them in two eco's that are making about 300whp and those are still going strong too. One thing to remember is that the deak and head surface have to be resurfaced according to Cometic's recommendations and I always use a copper spray on the head gasket to make sure it seals properly.
Quoth the Raven 'Nevermore
raven@accesswave.ca
Raven Autosports
55 McQuade Lake Cres,
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
(902) 850-3330
10.82@132
Holy hell!!! That block is toast!!!
I know, I agree with you, but I am just saying someone looking for 300-400 hp doesn't need to sleeve or o ring their block, thanks for the heads up, i wont need it now lol.
LE61T PTE6262 Powered
Oh yeah 3-400hp I would say that you could get away with a set of rods and pistons and be fine without any issues. But if you want to push it further than that 500+ then the added security would be a good idea imo. The last thing you want to happen is spend months building and spending lots of money to have it let go over something that could be avoided. When I originally read through the post I was thinking he was shooting for 500+ out of this build.
It's funny though how some people can get away with cheaping out on everything and have no problems and then the guys who spends a lot of money and covers all bases has nothing but problems. I guess you never can guarentee that things will be fine based off others. For example we have a local guy here who built a type R engine will all used parts, all used turbo gear including SSAutochrome ebay junk and he is running in the low 11's for the last two years without issues. On the other hand I have a friend who runs a B18 Dart block, all forged internals, MSD ignition, PT-67 turbo (same as mine), blah blah blah. He has blown head gaskets, pistons, dizzy's etc over the last year and he has all of his bases covered but just can't catch a break.
Quoth the Raven 'Nevermore
raven@accesswave.ca
Raven Autosports
55 McQuade Lake Cres,
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
(902) 850-3330
10.82@132
i have spoken to bates on the phone before about some ecotec stuff..mostly about the hardened oil pump gears and things related to the head
i may give them another ring.
keep in mind tho, I have also been told that the patriot heads are junk, and not to buy them.
and I can't think of anyone who's running an eagle crank in their eco (hahn has the GM billet steel 2.0 crank) or eagle rods to this power, so who's to know what really happens?
I appreciate the advice tho raven I'll be sure to give bates a call this coming week
^^^ I will let you know on the crank...I have a customer who I am building an eco for this winter and he already has the Eagle crank for it. And yeah give Ray a call, he loves to talk and is a great guy for information.
Quoth the Raven 'Nevermore
raven@accesswave.ca
Raven Autosports
55 McQuade Lake Cres,
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
(902) 850-3330
10.82@132
DaFlyinSkwirl (PJ) - APU wrote:and I can't think of anyone who's running an eagle crank in their eco (hahn has the GM billet steel 2.0 crank) or eagle rods to this power, so who's to know what really happens?
By mid December I'll be running an eagle crank. But I won't have money for boost till next year. Then its a question of if I'll go with turbo and MS or just go all out supercharger with stock 10:1 compression.
I DID have the head on my engine decked and it was off with 86,000 miles on the clock.
However my is 300->350HP. I got the crank because I got a deal like PJ did with the crank and rods. Also it lowers the rotational mass by a few pounds (2.25 lbs, 1.75 crank, 0.5 rods and pistons) Its not a lot, but when its spinning up to 7K-8Krpm it makes a large difference.
-Chris
ooooo pretty parts
RIP JESSE GERARD.....Youll always be in my thoughts and prayers...
I like your sleves, they are real big
1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85
no affense phil...but i trust the guy who broke GM engines as opposed to an eagle sales rep. I would do the same as PJ.
How can someone back up so much misinformation through another's experience? No time right now, but when I get home, I'll show you a 500+whp stock sleeved eco. Guy is a no-name local, and it's in his sandrail. Next, i'm not sure weather you guys are talking about Eagle's rods or cranks. The cranks I really have no experience. Wouldn't find a reason to go that length anyway when theres other means of strengthening the stock crack from its already savy state. However, the rods are a different story. Honda guys are making 600+whp on the stock 5/16" bolts. That same crowd is making the same and more with the most recent style which uses 3/8" arp2000 bolts. Everyone with "my friend did this, someone I know said that". Search around for some solid proof in the masses of what you're saying before you start to critique multi-million dollar companies that were in business far before anyone here was even born.
Blew it up, build numbers coming soon
DroptopPaul wrote:no affense phil...but i trust the guy who broke GM engines as opposed to an eagle sales rep. I would do the same as PJ.
thats fine, i wasn't telling PJ or Raven to trust me, but thats what I have learned through my research and much beyond just an "Eagle Sale's Rep"
LE61T PTE6262 Powered
awesome car car pj. just curious but in the Gm book when you reach the power your going to make the GM book suggests that you switch over to the 4t65E using the bates adapter plate, mounts and axels.I wasn't sure if that was a race only conversion or if it is for a street car. I tried emailing bates but they never get back to me so if you can clear that up for me guys i would greatly appreciate it and a price on the parts too.
PJ is running a 5 speed car...
If you need to run stronger rods just get the Crower Rods part number B93731B-4 at crower.com there billet and can hold plenty of power for the ecotecs, but as far the crank i dont know because thats what i am fighting with so if anyone has answers for the crank let me know.
I don't see the infamous dual balance shafts on the crank
carnivorous mouse wrote:awesome car car pj. just curious but in the Gm book when you reach the power your going to make the GM book suggests that you switch over to the 4t65E using the bates adapter plate, mounts and axels.I wasn't sure if that was a race only conversion or if it is for a street car. I tried emailing bates but they never get back to me so if you can clear that up for me guys i would greatly appreciate it and a price on the parts too.
im gonna be the high hp auto eco and im not switching to a 4t65e. im building the 4t40 to handle the power, nobody has actually pushed the 4t40 to its true potential so i guess we will see what it can do at the 08 bash
Quote:
so i guess we will see what it can do at the 08 bash
Hehe, with all this build commotion, who cant wait for the bash?
I know I can't whether I finish my car or not.
I really cant wait to see "ludacris" power.
GIT-R-DONE!
Joey <3's this build
Proud member of Jbody of Kentucky ... Click on sig to go!
