hey ive posted abunch the past few days and im trying to understand how you know if the door speakers and the rear speakers your gonna buy are good for your headunit and wont blow, the way i understand the back speakers at least is if your headunit is 50 x 4 the back speakers have to be at least 200 watts or below, is that right? I have not a clue about the door speakers and figuring out if your speakers your gonna buy is too large or not enough for the headunit. Thanks again
Distortion from under powering your speakers is what blows them. Your deck isn't putting out anything close to 50 watts even though Alpine says it is. If you look at the New ratings CES 2006 the decks that were rated at 50 X 4 are now rated at 16 X 4.
For some nice speakers I would recommend Alpine TypeS 6.5 components.
Also I would recommend getting a seperate amp for your main speakers.
Well, there's no such thing as having too big of speakers, your head unit may not have enough power to use them, but they won't "blow", if by "blow" you mean rip or break otherwise. Safe idea for speakers is to check the continuous power handling rating, if it's higher than your head unit's __x4 rating, your good.
<img src=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v502/brad_sk88/SpringSig.jpg>
it's usually not an issue...pretty much any speaker will work for you.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Offical dealer for the following-
SOUNDSTREAM
DB LINK
DB DRIVE
PANASONIC
GARMIN
ROSEN
SCOSCHE
XE DESIGNS
SOUNDGATE
PAC
LITEGLOW
if underpowering your speakers blows em up,, better not turn the volume down
Everyone will have there own opinion. I personally think its better to have an amp rated higher than your speakers are rated to handle so you never have to turn the amp up high enough to were its clipping. If its not clipping your speakers are getting a good clean signal. Of course you have to be smart and not go to extreme. Don't try running 25 watt rms speakers off a 200 watt rms amp.
But if you get some nice speakers like Alpine, MTX, or Infinity I see no problem feeding them twice there rated rms power as long as your using a quality amp and not a cheap over rated amp like a Boss or SPL.
If you have to power them off the headunit just make sure that you never turn the volume up more than about 80% of full volume and you should be fine.
sndsgood wrote:its not an opion, its a fact, underpowering a speaker will in no way damage it.
Saying underpowering a speaker would blow it would mean almost every car that is not driven strictly by a person who loves their music would have blown speakers. Even then, tell me how my sub is not blown when atleast 50% of my time driving, the stereo is low enough that you can barely hear it?
For components or Coaxial, get speakers that are at or higher then the RMS rating of the headunit or amp. For subs it is good to match the RMS rating unless you know of certain ones that can take more than they say they can.
sndsgood wrote:its not an opion, its a fact, underpowering a speaker will in no way damage it.
fact indeed
--------------------------------------------------------------
Offical dealer for the following-
SOUNDSTREAM
DB LINK
DB DRIVE
PANASONIC
GARMIN
ROSEN
SCOSCHE
XE DESIGNS
SOUNDGATE
PAC
LITEGLOW
MoonlightFantasy wrote:sndsgood wrote:its not an opion, its a fact, underpowering a speaker will in no way damage it.
Saying underpowering a speaker would blow it would mean almost every car that is not driven strictly by a person who loves their music would have blown speakers. Even then, tell me how my sub is not blown when atleast 50% of my time driving, the stereo is low enough that you can barely hear it?
For components or Coaxial, get speakers that are at or higher then the RMS rating of the headunit or amp. For subs it is good to match the RMS rating unless you know of certain ones that can take more than they say they can.
ive just never understood why people cant seem to remember that they run a 1000 watt system with say only 50 watts when they have the volume turned down low.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sndsgood/ https://www.facebook.com/#!/Square1Photography
sndsgood wrote:its not an opion, its a fact, underpowering a speaker will in no way damage it.
Then how do people blow speakers in factory systems or aftermarket systems with the speakers running off the headunit?
It's because neither one of them have a good enough amp to power the speakers at the volume level people want and send them a clean signal. They turn the volume up the amp starts clipping sending pure DC voltage across the voice coil melting the copper wires and blowing the speaker.
ye sunderpowering a speaker wont kill it. the reason people blow speakers when they are under powred is becuase they think since its under pwoering they can turn the gain up to 90% and think it will be fine but really they are sending a cliped singal. or they other problem is that after they installed all the stuff they relize its not loud enough for them so they turn the gain up too high and again send a cliped signal. right now im runnign 600 watts to my temp. kicker l7 and i have yet to blow it and i know it wont
Fast05 wrote:sndsgood wrote:its not an opion, its a fact, underpowering a speaker will in no way damage it.
Then how do people blow speakers in factory systems or aftermarket systems with the speakers running off the headunit?
It's because neither one of them have a good enough amp to power the speakers at the volume level people want and send them a clean signal. They turn the volume up the amp starts clipping sending pure DC voltage across the voice coil melting the copper wires and blowing the speaker.
you just described a clipped signal killing a speaker...aka distortion. NOT underpowering.
if you had a 1000 watt sub, with 50 watts pushed to it. even a full square signal probalby would not do any damage.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Offical dealer for the following-
SOUNDSTREAM
DB LINK
DB DRIVE
PANASONIC
GARMIN
ROSEN
SCOSCHE
XE DESIGNS
SOUNDGATE
PAC
LITEGLOW
fast 05, you awnsered your own question
They turn the volume up the amp starts clipping sending pure DC voltage across the voice coil melting the copper wires and blowing the speaker
this has nothing to do with power, its about turning a system up till it clips.
you can take a 500 watt speaker, and use a 500 watt (real world watts)amp. and if you turn the volume up till the headunit distorts and turn the gain up beyond where it should be properly set and youlle clip the signal just like you did on the underpowered system and kill the speaker. how much power your putting out has nothing to do with it. its the fact that people turn the volume and the gain up and causing the signal to clip. that my friend is what destroys the speaker.
go do this simple test for me if you still dont believe me, i'm assuming you have an amp in your car, go out, turn the car on and turn your volume to the lowest possible setting where you can barely barely hear the music, tell me how long it takes to blow your stereo. i mean if its say a 200 watt amp. and your maybe feeding it 10 watts to be able to barely hear it. now your underpowering your speakers an incredible amount. so they should blow right?
underpowering a speaker does no damage.
people turning up the gains and turning the volume past the point of distortion is the cause of blowing speakers, two completly diffrent things.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sndsgood/ https://www.facebook.com/#!/Square1Photography
sndsgood wrote:fast 05, you awnsered your own question
go out, turn the car on and turn your volume to the lowest possible setting where you can barely barely hear the music, tell me how long it takes to blow your stereo. i mean if its say a 200 watt amp. and your maybe feeding it 10 watts to be able to barely hear it. now your underpowering your speakers an incredible amount. so they should blow right?
I would but my system is all MTX and Alpine. Both of which are impossible to blow unlike Kicker and JL.
Anyways I've never had a speaker blow by feeding it more power than its rated for within reason. My last car I fed the main speakers 200 watts rms/ channel into MTX 5 1/4 components and 6X9 coaxials. They were rated at 150 watts peak. I never once blew the speakers. I sold the car before installing the 12" sub but it was going to be getting 1000 watts. All this was in a Pontiac Fiero. And to this day the system is still going strong.
Fast05 wrote:sndsgood wrote:fast 05, you awnsered your own question
go out, turn the car on and turn your volume to the lowest possible setting where you can barely barely hear the music, tell me how long it takes to blow your stereo. i mean if its say a 200 watt amp. and your maybe feeding it 10 watts to be able to barely hear it. now your underpowering your speakers an incredible amount. so they should blow right?
I would but my system is all MTX and Alpine. Both of which are impossible to blow unlike Kicker and JL.
Anyways I've never had a speaker blow by feeding it more power than its rated for within reason. My last car I fed the main speakers 200 watts rms/ channel into MTX 5 1/4 components and 6X9 coaxials. They were rated at 150 watts peak. I never once blew the speakers. I sold the car before installing the 12" sub but it was going to be getting 1000 watts. All this was in a Pontiac Fiero. And to this day the system is still going strong.
feed your mtx or alpine a badly clipped signal and it will blow just like any otther speaker on the market, their not harder or easier to blow then any other speaker. youve never blew a speaker by overpowering it.
ive ran several subs well under their rated power and never blown them. oh and ive owned both kicker and jl and have never blown them either. i guess that means they never blow....
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sndsgood/ https://www.facebook.com/#!/Square1Photography
Copied from an earlier thread
Labotomi wrote:wysiwyg wrote:ok..lemme break it down to ya on how it works...
High Power Amp at a high level-
Your Speaker's cone moves enough to cool the coil sufficiently..meaning no burnt coil.
Low power amp at High level
In the case of your friend...he was driving a severely clipped signal to his sub.(probably a full square wave) This means the cone does not move as far as it should to cool the coil properly in proportion to the amount of power it's given.
so i will tell you again...underpowering does NOT hurt speakers. dirty clipped signals and distortion do.
This is correct. In addition when the signal is clipping (like the above mentioned square wave) the signal is flat during this time, meaning the frequency is zero.
Zero frequency means inductive reactance is zero( XL=2 * pi * frequency * inductance).
Impedance of the speaker goes down (impedance = XL + resistance).
The only current limiting factor in the circuit is the resistance of the speakers. You've lowered the impedance of the speakers so the current through them will increase. Heat increases by the square of current. Heat = current squared * resistance (I^2*R).
If your current doubles your heat increases by a factor of 4.
Back on topic...
When headunits say they're "50 x 4"... that's PEAK power. Not RMS. Head Units will usually put out somewhere in the area of 15-20 watts RMS.
You are running some CRAP-ASS speakers if you blow them with 20 watts RMS.
Peak wattage numbers mean almost nothing. Ignore them. RMS is what you're looking for.
Club Vantage ::
importfighter.ca :: RIP Trux0r...
Ironman wrote:Back on topic...
If you were referring to my post then you need to look a little deeper and you'll find that it is on topic. I was explaining why it's clipped signals damage speakers (I just used equations for a technical description)
sndsgood wrote:ironman you could be running the highest end speakers and only feeding them 20 watts and blow them if your clipping the signal.
So let's get this straight. You're telling me that you can take a brand new Alpine Type-X sub (1000w RMS / 3000w Peak) and give it
20 watts RMS from some TINY amp or whatever.... and blow it if you clip the signal?
Club Vantage ::
importfighter.ca :: RIP Trux0r...
yep. thats our whole point, the amount of power 9x out of 10 isnt what causes the speaker to blow. what happens is someone doesnt know how to adjust their gain, so they turn the gain up thinking they will get more power out of their amp. in reality they are just cliipping the signal.
think of it this way, you have two cars, a ferrrari, and a pinto. both are manuels. (no rev limiters) a ferrari tops out at 200 mph. the pinto tops out at 105. now imagine u are driving both cars at 20 mph. if you happen to be going 20 mph but have the car in neutral and the pedal to the floor revvying the engine past redline, both cars are going to blow. it may take the ferrarir a bit more time to blow. but they both will blow their engines, the speed of the car had nothing to do with why they blew. reving the engine into the redline was the cause.
same thing in audio. if your sending a speaker a badly clipped signal. its not going to matter to much how many watts your giving it. its going to blow it either way. the issue isnt overpowering or underpowering or powerin the signal with the exact rms. the problem is when people turn the gain up thinking its a volume knob and that they will somehow get more power out of it. this genearlly happens when a kid has a small amp and wants to get all the power out of it he can. but the only reason the subs are being blown is because he turned the amp up to high. just like in the ferrari, u wont do any damage to the ferrari driving it around at 20mph all the time.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sndsgood/ https://www.facebook.com/#!/Square1Photography
sndsgood wrote:yep. thats our whole point, the amount of power 9x out of 10 isnt what causes the speaker to blow. what happens is someone doesnt know how to adjust their gain, so they turn the gain up thinking they will get more power out of their amp. in reality they are just cliipping the signal.
think of it this way, you have two cars, a ferrrari, and a pinto. both are manuels. (no rev limiters) a ferrari tops out at 200 mph. the pinto tops out at 105. now imagine u are driving both cars at 20 mph. if you happen to be going 20 mph but have the car in neutral and the pedal to the floor revvying the engine past redline, both cars are going to blow. it may take the ferrarir a bit more time to blow. but they both will blow their engines, the speed of the car had nothing to do with why they blew. reving the engine into the redline was the cause.
same thing in audio. if your sending a speaker a badly clipped signal. its not going to matter to much how many watts your giving it. its going to blow it either way. the issue isnt overpowering or underpowering or powerin the signal with the exact rms. the problem is when people turn the gain up thinking its a volume knob and that they will somehow get more power out of it. this genearlly happens when a kid has a small amp and wants to get all the power out of it he can. but the only reason the subs are being blown is because he turned the amp up to high. just like in the ferrari, u wont do any damage to the ferrari driving it around at 20mph all the time.
You're wrong. First of all, the Ferarri/Pinto is NOT an accurate comparison.
Let's go back to Electrical class. Watts = Amps x Volts. Using my example of the Alpine Type-X and 20 Watt RMS amp, we'll break it down.
1000w = Amps x 12volt
Amps = 1000w / 12
83.3 Amps
So we've now established that at the peak of the sinewave, that subwoofer is having 83.33 Amperes of current flow through it. As we all know current flow is what causes heat, obviously the wiring AS WELL as the voice coil are equipped to handle 83.33 amps. In fact, MUCH more then that because 1000w is the RMS rating, not PEAK. But not constantly, because the voice coil relies on the movement of the subwoofer to cool the voice coil.
20 Watts RMS = Amps x 12volts
Amps = 20 Watts RMS / 12volts
1.66 Amps.
So a completely clipped signal would send 1.6 amps to that subwoofer.
Not only would that subwoofer barely MOVE, there is no chance that you would get that subwoofer's voice coils hot enough to blow it. Not a chance. Even with a completely clipped signal.
I WILL agree with you that signal clipping blows subwoofers. I've seen it happen, and i've saved it from happening. However, in SEVERE underpowering examples like shown here, it's just not possible no matter how bad clipping is. If you were to use, say... a 750watt amplifier on that Alpine sub... You could then clip the signal and blow the sub. Not with 20. It's just not going to happen.
Club Vantage ::
importfighter.ca :: RIP Trux0r...
^^ Your equations are right but your not applying them correctly.
Power also equals Voltage squared divided by resistance.
P=12^2 * R
Assuming Resistance equals 4 ohms
P= 144/4
P=36 watts
Doesn't quite match your results (both calculations mix and match input valuess and output values). Neither of us have a full set of values to accurately calculate power.
The 12 volts you used in the power equation is the DC voltage to the amp not the AC voltage from the amp. The AC voltage is higher therefore the AC current to the speaker is lower.
Also you assume a stationary position for the speaker (this is true during the clipped signal but not when a clean signal is applied). This affects the circuit by inducing a counter electromotive force (
Definition). (which is opposite the applied voltage). This limits the current through the speaker. A speaker is a linear motor so the CEMF applies. Think about generating it's own voltage opposite of the amps output.
Have you ever looked at the wires on a voice coil? Do you really think they can handle 83 amps. According to wiring charts 83 amps would require 4gage wiring.
If you want to take the discussion to a technical level, be sure to have enough knowlege to back up your arguments.
