Hey Guys , i'm Having a prob with my Cavy i've mentioned it on here before had it checked out by various dealers etc no one can seem to figure out what is wrong with it . The problem i am having is an intermittent starting problem when the engine is cold, when the engine is at normal operating temperature no problems. When it is cold like after it has been sitting all day or overnight, the problems arise i almost got stuck at work tonight because it didn't want to turn over, finally after the third time and a loud bang that sounded like a backfire from under the hood, it finally kicked over. It's supposed to be 26 here tonight and i'm hoping it's going to start tomorrow or i may just have to walk to work, as i said it only does it intermittently not throwing any codes or anything don't know if maybe the engine is just extremely cold or what any help would be appreciated thanks .

What does it do when you try to start your car. No sound, some sound..??
What oil are you running and when was the last time you had it changed??
Is your intake still stock??

-Seth

What did they do to your car? Did they change the ingnition, the starter, the coils? More info is needed.

Oh yah since your profile is non-existant, what year and motor.

It's an 04 Ls sedan 2.2 ecotec 4 speed automatic the oil is due to be changed in the next 600 miles or so , everything is stock the coils have not been changed. The ignition has never been adjusted replaced etc the dealer recommended a good throttle body cleaning , last time it was in there which was about a week ago i had the engine decarboned. When the starting prob occurs the engine cranks but sounds like it is straining to turn over almost like the engine is starved for fuel or something, not sure if maybe i have a bad sensor or if for some reason the computer is cutting off fuel to the injectors.

though i would think if i had a bad sensor, and the computer was cutting off fuel to the injectors it would be doing it all the time even when the engine was at normal operating temp not sure on that though. Oh Yeah the starter has also never been replaced though if this keeps up it may go soon that's one thing for sure if this keeps up the starter will be fried at some point that or the battery.

Just a shot in the dark but would your battery cables happen to be tight or corrodid?

I'd say...
1. Check your battery. Take it to like napa or something and have them test it.
2. Check your connections. Make sure there isn't corrosion or anything .
3. Check your intake sensor. I forget if its and IAT, MAF, idk, lol. Might be a long shot but it'd be worth checking.

-Seth

The Battery cables are fine there was a little bit of what appeared to be either dirt or battery acid on there, so i cleaned that off as far as the intake sensor would that be noticable during a throttle body cleaning. If the intake sensor was bad though wouldn't that at some point prevent the engine from turning over at all.

As far as the kind of oil i'm running it's straight 10-30 the car has about 76,000 on it, i also had the power steering flushed recently as well only because i started hearing a groaning noise and didn't want to risk the power steering pump going out.

um...you dont have to take my advice....but the first thing i would do is change the battery..dont charge it..just change it..it sounds like the battery is holding a charge so its starting ok like after work or something...but its slowly losing that charge enough that itll barly start after a period of time...like say overnight..not to mention things being cold will only make it worse....but im just a GM tech what do i know

Quote:

hen the starting prob occurs the engine cranks but sounds like it is straining to turn over almost like the engine is starved for fuel or something,

fuel has nothing to do with an engine turning over..fuel simply makes it run...the starter makes it turn over and it should turn over the same everytime IF its getting the right amount of voltage....in other words..badbattery

Niteowl wrote:The Battery cables are fine there was a little bit of what appeared to be either dirt or battery acid on there, so i cleaned that off as far as the intake sensor would that be noticable during a throttle body cleaning. If the intake sensor was bad though wouldn't that at some point prevent the engine from turning over at all.

Go deeper than just looking at the cables on the battery, follow them to the starter, alternator, everywhere that they go and look at them, and the connections.

How many CCA's is your battery rated at? I would say you need a stronger battery.



1983 Camaro Z28

okay my battery last i checked was fine, why replace the starter, alternator or anything else if none of that is bad why throw money away if you don't have to. As for a stronger battery yeah i suppose i could probably go that route however, if i get one that's too strong that would probably damage the alternator which in turn could probably damage other things so. Granted i know you didn;t suggest replacing them but if everything appears ok a stronger battery would just burn out stuff like the alternator would it not, maybe it would just eliminate my problems entirely who knows. The battery i have now is a $29.95 great deal i got from walmart last year because i didn't feel like paying $100 for a battery from the dealer

O boy.
If people are running yelowtops and redtops, you're fine with what you pick out.
You could go to walmart and buy a 60-70$ battery and be fine. Thats what i have and it works fine.

But ya, you should find out what you CCA's ur battery is (cold cranking amps).

-Seth

Niteowl wrote:okay my battery last i checked was fine, why replace the starter, alternator or anything else if none of that is bad why throw money away if you don't have to. As for a stronger battery yeah i suppose i could probably go that route however, if i get one that's too strong that would probably damage the alternator which in turn could probably damage other things so. Granted i know you didn;t suggest replacing them but if everything appears ok a stronger battery would just burn out stuff like the alternator would it not, maybe it would just eliminate my problems entirely who knows. The battery i have now is a $29.95 great deal i got from walmart last year because i didn't feel like paying $100 for a battery from the dealer

How did you go about checking the battery? You need to have a load test done on it. A simple voltage test will do nothing. If it has a dead cell, it can hold at the full 12 volts that it's supposed to, but when a load is introduced, it'll drop quick. This would make the engine sound like it's straining to turn. Especially if it looks like there was acid or junk from teh battery like you've said.

2 - A stronger battery???????? What exactly is a stronger battery? You can get one with a higher reserve capacity, but I dont see how that would damage anything in any way shape or form.

By the way... 29.95 for a battery from wal-mart for a j-body, is a 1 year battery. I have one in mine. Same price too. You got it last year. So, by the math.... it's likely giving out. A battery can go bad in it's warranty period. The one in my GTP had no problem doing that at all.

And buying a battery from the dealer. I woudlnt either.

My "diagnosis" session with him last night:

NiteOwl4310: i need your help
Zibelthiurdos: ok
NiteOwl4310: remember awhile back i told you i was having a cold start problem with my cavy
Zibelthiurdos: yeah
NiteOwl4310: well i'm still having it and someone on the org suggested i get a stronger battery now my thoughts on that are if i spend the money and do that and it happens to be too strong it will burn the alternator out won't it
Zibelthiurdos: no, the battery does not feed into the alternator, and a battery does not push amps, items pull amps so it just means there is more amps available to be pulled, so nothing will burn out, as long as its 12 volts, whatever amperage you get will be fine
NiteOwl4310: now is that true that in essence fuel has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with an engine turning over and that in fact the starter is almost 100% responsible for the engine starting
Zibelthiurdos: the engine won't start without fuel or spark, no matter how fast the starter spins the engine
NiteOwl4310: because i suggested possibly i had a bad sensor somewhere or that for some reason the computer was cutting off fuel to the injectors last time my car was into the shop i had the engine decarboned and they suggested a throttle body cleaning a bad intake sensor wouldn;t be able to be revealed during that would t
NiteOwl4310: it
Zibelthiurdos: not really, but a bad intake sensor won't prevent the engine from starting
NiteOwl4310: what would it result in
Zibelthiurdos: a check engine light, rough idle, and bad gas mileage
NiteOwl4310: i mean it's not throwing any codes or anything i could probably get a stronger battery but if the battery that's in there now is just fine it wouldn't make much sense to take a perfectly good battery and replace it would it
Zibelthiurdos: is it the stock battery?
NiteOwl4310: no that they wanted $100 for and i didn't feel like spending that much so i got a $2995 one from walmart
Zibelthiurdos: what is the cold cranking amps rating on it? and is it the one that the book shows your car needs?
NiteOwl4310: i'd have to take a look at it sometime i don't know off hand what the cca's are is there a certain percentage/amount they need to be
Zibelthiurdos: you want at least 650 cca's
NiteOwl4310: anything less will what cause the battery to go dead quick or what
Zibelthiurdos: no, will just make the car hard to start when its cold
NiteOwl4310: but see the thing is in a case like that you'd have the hard staring probs when the engine was at normal operating temp also wouldn't u
Zibelthiurdos: no, liquid style batteries get more powerful when warm, as you drive the car around the battery warms up so it would perform better
NiteOwl4310: and then when it gets cold the problem would return
Zibelthiurdos: yeah
NiteOwl4310: is priming the fuel pump hard on the pump itself to the point of running the risk of wearing it out
Zibelthiurdos: no, priming the pump just runs it, just like when you are driving
NiteOwl4310: if you have to prime the pump is it better to just go ahead and replace it
Zibelthiurdos: the pump self primes every time you start the car
NiteOwl4310: so then turning the ignition on and off without starting the car is useless
Zibelthiurdos: yeah
NiteOwl4310: because someone suggested i try that as a way to check to see if maybe the fuel pump was bad
Zibelthiurdos: if the pump is bad you wouldn't hear it prime when you started it, and you would have problems all the time, not just when cold
NiteOwl4310: okay because like i was telling this person there is no change in the starter speed that part is consistent and if the battery or the starter either one were weak the engine would just crawl over
Zibelthiurdos: have you ever changed the spark plugs?
NiteOwl4310: no but and i don;t know that this is right or not but the spark plugs on the 2.2 ecotec are they like most engines down along the bottom middle of the engine or are they made of rubber
Zibelthiurdos: i don't think there are any rubber spark plugs, they are under the cover that says "ecotec"
NiteOwl4310: i had a tune up done awhile back not from the dealer but from a place called tune up masters out here they showed me some what looked like rubber boots under the cover that said ecotec
Zibelthiurdos: yeah, those boots are connected to the spark plugs, those are like the spark plug wires
NiteOwl4310: and underneath that is the spark plugs
Zibelthiurdos: yeah
NiteOwl4310: you'd need like a socket wrench or something to get to them wouldn't; u
Zibelthiurdos: a ratchet driver, extension, and a spark plug socket





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Wow, this guy has alot to learn.

I'm telling you, get a battery with a high CCA number and you will be fine.

My battery with my high torque mini starter has never given me problems, and my battery isn't even a good battery..

I plan on getting an Optima Yellow Top though, I don't like to be cheap when I buy stuff for my car, because you get what you pay for. Like your $30 battery..



1983 Camaro Z28

being he didnt go deep into the cable being crodded issue , and knowing GM's great side post leaking batteries

id say he prob needs to clean the cable end better , or replace it

and for the love of all cars , dont use cheap 30 dolla batteries (unless your selling the car, lol)

Unfortunely a lot of people on here are morons.
Most of them are part changers, and keep Junkzone and NAPA in business, and some of those companies are turning record profits thanks to people that toss parts rather than diagnose the problem.
I see people said, toss a battery, toss a starter, toss sensors and this and that. They really arent to bright, every part of the car can be tested.

First off I'm not talking out of my ass here, I know what I'm talking about, I have several Michigan certs, and eight Nissan factory certs.

GM dealers, ( I work at one) are required to have a Midtronics battery, starter, alternator tester.

They can test the battery, starter, alternator all within 5 minutes.

If one of them was the issue, they would have seen the problem using the tool.

If the battery is dying after sitting for a long time, you can test the parasitic draw.

You need a voltmeter.

The car must have been sitting for more than 20 minutes, completely off. The reason is newer GMs, stay awake if you will for 20 minutes after the key was shut completely off.

You loosen, but do not remove the negative battery cable.

Meter reading set to 10amp scale.

You lift the cable up slighty, and attach the negative lead to the post, and the positive lead to the cable terminal itself. CAREFULLY remove the cable completely, make 100% SURE that the meter is ALWAYS touching, if it slips off either connections, you must restart the test.

Your reading should be below .100mA

Something else I have seen that comes to mind. A faulty intermittent ECT sensor.

If the car says it is hotter than it is, it will send a leaner mixture.

If it says 165F, but the coolant is actually 41F, you will have a very hard time trying to start the car. ECT sensors can be tested, I use a scan tool.

Otherwise you need a temp gun, and the resistance to temp chart to see if it working correctly.

I have seen the fuel pressure regulator leak, causing a hard start.

I would check fuel pressure, when trying to start the cold engine. Should read 52psi I think, KOEO, and KOER 60psi.

If the pressures are to low, bad FPR, or restriction in the fuel lines.

Lots of other things can cause hard starts to.

let me know if you need more help, you can send me a PM if you wish to, if you have any questions

how many miles you at by the way


- 2004 Cavalier - 124k, owned since new

Quote:

I have seen the fuel pressure regulator leak, causing a hard start.

I would check fuel pressure

thats what i told him last night....well see how it goes i guess

I want rubber spark plugs too!

That explains some of the posts that I have read of his now.

good luck buddy.


01 cav w/01 3400 gam gt 4t45e

Okay you know what Joe if your going to sit around making fun of other peoples posts instead of being of any real help, yeah i may not be the brightest person in the world but hey isn't that why they have stuff like J body.org to assist others in dealing with certain problems they may be having with their car instead of ragging on them and making fun of them. Anyway i've narrowed it down to 2 things either the fuel pump itself, or the battery is getting ready to go, which is a possibility not going to say for positive that that is the case. Yeah i could have a load test etc done on the battery but if i did and the battery turned out ok , maybe there is a restriction of some kind in the fuel pump. Yeah i know i have a lot to learn, i know i don't know a whole lot about my car or the J's in general for that matter but as i said before it's the entire point of J body.org to assist others.

Rob S wrote:Unfortunely a lot of people on here are morons.
Most of them are part changers, and keep Junkzone and NAPA in business, and some of those companies are turning record profits thanks to people that toss parts rather than diagnose the problem.
I see people said, toss a battery, toss a starter, toss sensors and this and that. They really arent to bright, every part of the car can be tested.

First off I'm not talking out of my ass here, I know what I'm talking about, I have several Michigan certs, and eight Nissan factory certs.

GM dealers, ( I work at one) are required to have a Midtronics battery, starter, alternator tester.

They can test the battery, starter, alternator all within 5 minutes.

If one of them was the issue, they would have seen the problem using the tool.

If the battery is dying after sitting for a long time, you can test the parasitic draw.

You need a voltmeter.

The car must have been sitting for more than 20 minutes, completely off. The reason is newer GMs, stay awake if you will for 20 minutes after the key was shut completely off.

You loosen, but do not remove the negative battery cable.

Meter reading set to 10amp scale.

You lift the cable up slighty, and attach the negative lead to the post, and the positive lead to the cable terminal itself. CAREFULLY remove the cable completely, make 100% SURE that the meter is ALWAYS touching, if it slips off either connections, you must restart the test.

Your reading should be below .100mA

Something else I have seen that comes to mind. A faulty intermittent ECT sensor.

If the car says it is hotter than it is, it will send a leaner mixture.

If it says 165F, but the coolant is actually 41F, you will have a very hard time trying to start the car. ECT sensors can be tested, I use a scan tool.

Otherwise you need a temp gun, and the resistance to temp chart to see if it working correctly.

I have seen the fuel pressure regulator leak, causing a hard start.

I would check fuel pressure, when trying to start the cold engine. Should read 52psi I think, KOEO, and KOER 60psi.

If the pressures are to low, bad FPR, or restriction in the fuel lines.

Lots of other things can cause hard starts to.

let me know if you need more help, you can send me a PM if you wish to, if you have any questions

how many miles you at by the way

Ok.... maybe that's a lot of work to diagnose a simple problem. If the CTS is giving an incorrect reading, why would the ECM still be sending a leaner mixture, when it's metering for cranking fuel since its under 400rpm? I can certainly see it giving problems with stalling by not running any warmup enrichment while the engine is still cold. Why would it not pop a DTC later when the sensor is reading way out of range? The leaner a/f mixture will NOT make the engine crank slowly... which is the problem.

Being a parts changer might be one thing.... but being cheap about it (such as a 30 dollar wal-mart battery) is what's the problem. Maybe it keeps AutoZone in buisness or whatever like you say, but myself and a lot of others on here end up making a trip to those parts stores once and have their problem fixed. The reason this happens is because of a lot of the ignorant BS and the overcharging the comes from what's so affectionately called the "STEALership". Which, is pretty much the truth whenever the word is said.

There's no sense in sitting telling him to try all this different crap to try checking which would require tools that he probably doesnt have, when it certainly doesnt sound like it's a serious enough issue that would warrant using that sort of tools and procedures.

Niteowl - Like I mentioned before. The 29.95 battery from wal-mart is a 1 year battery. I have one too, cuz at the time I just wanted something that would start my car and had intention in changing it later. It's been about a year since that's gone in, and honestly... I'm waiting for it to give out soon. I'm suprised because of the number of times it got deep discharged, that it actually still works. It might be 1 year free and 2 year pro-rated or something like that, i'm not really sure. But I'd seriously replace the battery. Dont be cheap about it, spend a little money and get something with a 3 or 4 year warranty if you can even if it is from Wal-Mart. That way you dont run into the same problem again a year from now.

^^^^ I agree with SHOoff. While it's true that they could test all of those components I can pretty much sit here at my computer and ask a few simple questions to figure out the same things.

1 Does the engine turn over when you turn the key? he has already said- it does, but weakly. but when warm works fine. starter's probably ok.

2 Does the car continue to run once started? He again has said, it does. Alternator's probably fine.

parasitic draw? possibly, but when you hear hoofs outside I'm inclined to think "horse" before I think "zebra".

He mentioned a corroded battery cable though- a corroded cable could indicate a leak (not uncommon with side-post, liquid-cell batteries). Low fluid in the battery would absolutely reduce the CCA, causing exactly the problem he is describing.

With these things in mind I would absolutely throw a 29.95 battery at it and see before I paid an 86 dollar diag at the dealership plus the cost of the new battery. And while you're at Sears or Walmart, I would pick up a new cable-end as well and throw that on- it's cheap, not difficult to do, and IMO it's less of a pain than using battery cleaner and scrubbing the s#!t out of the old one.




I may not be the sharpest crayon in the box, but at least I'm a pretty color

^^^^

Ah no wasnt my idea to test the starter and alternator, someone above said to replace those parts, which is what I was disputing.

I'm not a parts changer, if I went to work monday and had a car with an issue. I just kept tossing parts without diagnosis, my boss would fire me on the spot.




- 2004 Cavalier - 124k, owned since new