89 Turbo 2.0 engine, with 76k original miles, is what is in my my car last year.. I blew/destroyed three T3 turbos on my car last year. That's a thread of it's own and I'd rather not get into it here (the problem has since been fixed that causes the failure(s), it was a bad oil drain location) but each time they blew, I got a considerable amount of metal in the pan and in the filter. I'm confident that 99.9% of it was caught by the filter that was sucked up by the pump, I have a magnetic drain plug and that caught some, and I run Mobil 1, so I'm no horribly concerned about the bearings but - I wanted to check them to make sure they were ok. Issue is that you take the rod bolts out - you gotta change em cause they're TTY. However this affords me the opportunity to do a great mod to the 2.0 - ARP rod bolts, as the rod bolts tend to break before the rods in the 2.0. That being said First question:

1. I don't' know the part number for the ARP rod bolts? I cant' see to find it and the LT3 is not in the application guide for ARP rod bolts. They are just standard bolts though so I thought about calling ARP and giving them the measurements or even sending them my old bolts but I'd be more comfortable with a confirmed part number others have used? Or confirmed measurements?

2. Should I consider different bearings then stock advance auto replacements? Is their a bearing that works for the stock size bearings and stock rods that is superior? if so, part number/place to order please?

3. I'm leary / scared to mess with internals in the bottom end as the first and only motor I built when I was 18, threw a rod after running for just 2 minutes. I believe the bearings were not correctly sized / plasti gauged. I don't know. But I'm scared. This will be a confidence builder. My plan so far is:
a.) use a blade dial micrometer on the center of the existing of the existing bearings just to double check they're the stock size (they ARE measured at the middle right)?
b.) Install new bearings with moly assembly lube
c.) use plasti gauge and install new ARP hardware, and torque to spec, make sure plastigauge indicates that the bearing tolerance is in spec.
d.) Run the motor for a few hundred miles with conventional oil for break in. Perhaps with a liter of auto trans fluid?

However, I'm open to additional suggestions as I want to make sure this goes flawless. So what assembly lube should I use, any info on plasti gauging I should know, should I run conventional oil and should I add auto trans fluid to it, etc etc etc. A walkthru in the way you would do it would be nice...

Again I'm not feeling confident here so anything that can be said to help reassure me would rule... lol.

Here are some pics of one of my existing bearings, cyl 3, I'm fairly certain the others will be in similar shapes. You can see evidence of some deposits on them but they look otherwise like the wear I'd expect with 75k on them I'd think.

I used stock bearings in mine and it was fine and you can reuse the rod bolts again but torque them 2-3lbs tighter.I didnt think you could reuse the bolts but a mechanic at the GM garage told me to just torque them 2-3 lbs more and itll be fine so far so good

Aaron Cockerham wrote:I used stock bearings in mine and it was fine and you can reuse the rod bolts again but torque them 2-3lbs tighter.I didnt think you could reuse the bolts but a mechanic at the GM garage told me to just torque them 2-3 lbs more and itll be fine so far so good

That's complete hogwash sorry you got misled. The ONLY way you'd be able to tell if they were safe to reuse is with a bolt stretch gauge, taking before and after measurements. And since the stock bolts are TTY and designed to stretch, I highly doubt that they are ok to reuse. I reused flywheel bolts which aren't designed to be reused either but the stresses on them cannot compare to rod bolts. If anything torqueing them TIGHTER will make them fail QUICKER as now you're stretching the bolts past their design. I would change them out asap. I would never trust the average mechanic for advice on building a motor or anything important for that matter.

Aaron, any one who understands anything about how fasteners work would never tell you to "torque them 2 - 3 lbs tighter."

Jim, how dare you say an "average mechanic" doesn't know enough to build an engine. Truth be told, a mechanic who can't rebuild an engine is below average. There's less thinking involved in rebuilding a stock engine (even a stock Turbo Sunbird engine) than there is in diagnosing some electrical problems. All you need to do is follow directions.

Aaron, a bolt actually works like a spring. It's pulled out past it's original length when it's tightened and the force created as it tries to return to length is what holds parts together. Torque specs are one way to try and specify how much the bolt should be stretched. As a bolt is tightened the pressure generated at the threads increases, which causes the friction to increase, causing the resistance to your work to increase. The more friction, the more stretch. Unfortunately torque specs are entirely dependent on the condition of the threads and what, if any, lube is used between them. Because of this, torque specs alone don't give the best, most consistent results..

The chance for error between desired bolt stretch and actual grows as the torque applied to the bolt increases. Instead of using a high torque value and relying solely on friction, torque to yield specifications provide a lower torque spec and a specific amount of rotation after the torque spec is reached to achieve the desired amount of bolt stretch. With a known thread pitch on the bolt, it's easy to calculate how much bolt stretch is developed after the initial torque. These specs generally result in the bolt being pulled right to the limit of it's ability to return to original length. For this reason bolts used with TTY specs are supposed to be discarded after each use. Re-using the bolt and cranking it another 2-3 ft-lbs really pushes the limit of a bolt which has alread been pushed to it's calculated limit. If you did this and the bolt lived, it's only due to the fact that the engineers designing your bolt probably built it better than it has to be.

Jim, the bolts are no different for TTY engines than for traditional engines. The specs are different. Check older 1.8 engines and you'll see that the bolts were tightened using old-fashioned torque specs. I have re-used bolts in NA TBI Sunbirds in a pinch (and with many prayers) by tightening the bolts to the older specs. I would never do this on anyone's car but my own and don't recommend it. I only mention it because there are some days when you can't get rod bolts or head bolts, and you need to be able to put a car together until the parts come in. And really, rod bolts and nuts are not supposed to be re-used anyway, no matter what the torque method. They lose up to 22% (IIRC) of their clamping ability each time they're torqued. FWIW the best way to tighten rod bolts is to measure exactly how much they're being stretched using a rod bolt stretch gauge.

I would never use ATF in a crankcase, especially during a rebuild. ATF starts life as a 10 wt base oil, then friction modifiers, detergents, and dye are added. It has no place in an engine crankcase. I use STP, white lithium assembly lube, or GM Engine Oil Supplement on the bearings to fill the gaps and to provide temporary lubrication during initial startup. All of these products quickly wash away to allow the oil to do it's job and they melt at low temperature to blend with the oil instead of plugging the oil filter. You should always ensure you have oil pressure and that the oil filter and passages have filled with oil before actually starting the engine.

Relying on a magnetic drain plug to catch lead, copper, and aluminum particles created as an engine wears won't give you much protection. If the plug is picking up worn stuff, it's from ferrous parts such as the cam, lifters, crank, rings, oil pump, or block. Check all of these parts well if you've found a ignificant amount of metal on the magnet.

Avoid the plastigage if possible. It can be difficult to clean off the crank and bearings. If you have the rods out, install the bearings, torque the caps, and measure the ID of the bearing at 90 degrees to the cap parting line. Measure the crank, subtract the crank dimension from the bearing dimension and the result is your bearing clearance. If you are going to use plastigage, skip measuring the bearing shell thickness. Install the bearing halves on a dry crankshaft with PG and take your measurement. Use CRC Brakeclean in the green can or some other chemical with the ability to dissolve plastic to remove used PG completely.

Why not use conventional oil always? Plenty of pro racers use it. I use it in all my rigs. The Sunbird, the turbo Cav, even the racecar. Conventional oil changed at 2500 miles costs less than synthetic changed at 5k.. If you doubt it's abilities I can show you pictures of the well running 4.3 coming out of our S10 Blazer with 110k miles. It looks brand new inside the lifter galley and I have a hunch the bearings look much better than the ones in your pictures above (yours have been subjected to abuse from dirt or large metal particles).

I use vinyl or latex gloves during engine assembly to prevent dirt and grease picked up in my skin from transferring to the engine parts. With the rod dry and clean (no linty rags allowed) I snap in the dry bearing and alternately push on each end to ensure it's seated. You can usually tell if there's larger bits of dirt when you snap the bearing in, in case something's happened since you cleaned the parts. With the bearing shells in the rod and cap, check the mating halves of the bearing and rod / cap for any dirt or grit and remove anything which doesn't belong. Apply a light coating of lube to the sides of the rod and cap, and to the bearing shells. Apply a light coating of lube to the crank. Avoid getting lube on the mating faces of the rod / cap and bearing shells. Remember that grease is not compressible and can interfere with these parts being bolted together as intended. Assemble the parts and torque the fasteners. Repeat until all bearings are installed.

There is much superstition in engine building. Guys develop a method which works and stick with it, even if it doesn't make sense. When you start asking opinions about how to assemble an engine, what lubricants to use and why, what brand parts and why, you may get completely opposite answers from two people who are both very competent. Keep that in mind as you talk with more people.

Oh, and my first engine threw a rod bearing, too.

HTH

-->Slow

I built my first engine when I was 17, a 2.5 iron duke. It actually ran pretty well.



Cardomain|Myspace

Shannen as usualy your replies are invaluable! Here goes:

slowolej wrote:Jim, how dare you say an "average mechanic" doesn't know enough to build an engine. Truth be told, a mechanic who can't rebuild an engine is below average. There's less thinking involved in rebuilding a stock engine (even a stock Turbo Sunbird engine) than there is in diagnosing some electrical problems. All you need to do is follow directions.

Heh well it's because in my expirence mechanics don't go by the book especially non dealer mechanics (as they often don't have the books anyways). A few of my friend are dealer mechanics and they've told me straight up they have 1 or two guys in the shop that do all the engine rebuilds as they don't feel comfortable with them.

Quote:

FWIW the best way to tighten rod bolts is to measure exactly how much they're being stretched using a rod bolt stretch gauge.

Yeah ARP themselves says to use a bolt strech gauge. Is there room to check the stretch while the motor is fully assembled with an ARP gauge? Is there a better/cheaper bolt stretch gauge I should buy for this purpose?

Quote:

I would never use ATF in a crankcase, especially during a rebuild. ATF starts life as a 10 wt base oil, then friction modifiers, detergents, and dye are added. It has no place in an engine crankcase.

I think this goes along with your later statement, an engine guy or two I know uses it because it's high in detergents and tends to encapsulate metal particles well. However, I dont' subscribe much to the idea, and agree with you.

Quote:

I use STP, white lithium assembly lube, or GM Engine Oil Supplement on the bearings to fill the gaps and to provide temporary lubrication during initial startup.

Is the STP stuff sold at any auto parts stores? I think the stuff I've ever used was black moly.

Quote:

You should always ensure you have oil pressure and that the oil filter and passages have filled with oil before actually starting the engine.

This brings up another question. AFAIK I've never been able to get a 2.0 to build oil pressure while the motor isn't running. I'll take the fuel and spark out of the equation and crank it with the starter, I think I've gone like a full 30 seconds before, and never gotten oil pressure, until the motor "catches" and the RPMs climb. It's like if the motor is dry/has sat for a while, the pump won't build pressure at cranking RPM. And I don't see a way to spin it with a drill like you can with other motors because it's driven off the crank. So how would you reccomend doing this ? I've highly considered adding a pressurized oil accumulator with manual release for this very reason.

Quote:

Relying on a magnetic drain plug to catch lead, copper, and aluminum particles created as an engine wears won't give you much protection. If the plug is picking up worn stuff, it's from ferrous parts such as the cam, lifters, crank, rings, oil pump, or block. Check all of these parts well if you've found a ignificant amount of metal on the magnet.

Well this metal is from the turbo bearings dying.. each time I've found a peice of the thrust bearing in the oil return or in the pan, a thin long strip. The rest of the metal is the rest of the bearing I'd assume.

Quote:

Avoid the plastigage if possible. It can be difficult to clean off the crank and bearings. If you have the rods out, install the bearings, torque the caps, and measure the ID of the bearing at 90 degrees to the cap parting line. Measure the crank, subtract the crank dimension from the bearing dimension and the result is your bearing clearance. If you are going to use plastigage, skip measuring the bearing shell thickness. Install the bearing halves on a dry crankshaft with PG and take your measurement. Use CRC Brakeclean in the green can or some other chemical with the ability to dissolve plastic to remove used PG completely.

Rods are in the engine still, and the motor is in the car. i didn't want to pull anything for this other then the caps as this is hopefully just a quick fix/upgrade. If the new bearings plastigauge the same as the old bearings, and both are in Spec, then they can be safely assumed to be the same size and not over/undersized I'd think, correct?

Do you reccomend plasti gauging BOTH SIDES of the crank? IE both bearings? Or just one side?

Quote:

Why not use conventional oil always? Plenty of pro racers use it. I use it in all my rigs. The Sunbird, the turbo Cav, even the racecar. Conventional oil changed at 2500 miles costs less than synthetic changed at 5k.. If you doubt it's abilities I can show you pictures of the well running 4.3 coming out of our S10 Blazer with 110k miles. It looks brand new inside the lifter galley and I have a hunch the bearings look much better than the ones in your pictures above (yours have been subjected to abuse from dirt or large metal particles).

Yeah I'm sure 3 turbo's blowing is why my bearings show some abuse for certain. As far as oil, I wouldn't conventional with a turbo. You are probobly aware of the reasons I'm sure but here it is anyways: Synth has a real nice advantage to conventional - 0% ash content. The ash is what turns into fallout and depostis on the center catridge of a turbo's shaft and is what leads to shaft and bearing wear. In my reading and talking with various turbo rebuilders I've been told the number one cause of turbo "normal" failure or "expected" failure other then ingested material and contaminated oil - is the oil itself leaving deposits. While water cooled cartridges help prevent more of the oil burning off the shaft during shutdown - it can't prevent it from happenign at all, nor can a turbo timer. They're just "helpers". It will still fry some of the oil and when it does the ash falls out of solution and gets baked on the shaft. With ful synthetic oil, this problem is eliminated entirely. The majority of pro racers I've seen with turbos especially the huge cartridges not availible with water cooling have run full synthetic for this reason as they are often starting the car, running it for a few minutes when drag racing, and then shutting it back off, causing a lot of heat cycling and oppurtunites for the oil to bake on teh shaft..

I've seen pics of identical cars and turbos running conventional and synthetic oils and the engine rebuild and turbo rebuilds done for studies like this. Modern engines, like a WRX boxer 2.5, with water cooled cartridges etc. The engine in both looks good, the turbo on the car with conventional shows a good deal of shaft depostis. the last one I saw was Castrol GTX vs Mobil 1 - a high quality conventional vs full synthetic.

The other reason would be specific to Mobil 1 - when you use it you'd notice it acts "thin" for a given viscosity it's specifically engineered to protect as well as the viscocity rating requires, but behaves like a lower viscocity oil in terms of flow and drain back. So you get faster recirculation and it's more prone to "squeeze" into tight clearences better when it's cold, showing a reduction in cold startup wear. It's also since it's thinner less difficult to move around and displace so like switching to a lower viscocity oil, often frees up a bit of power. Whether the 2.0 would see this I wouldn't know unless you dyno'd it back to back. Royal purple has been tested by a few magezines as showing a freeing up of HP due to it also being "thinner" and from what I've read thus far Mobil 1 is better engineered so... :shrugs:

Quote:

I use vinyl or latex gloves during engine assembly to prevent dirt and grease picked up in my skin from transferring to the engine parts. With the rod dry and clean (no linty rags allowed) I snap in the dry bearing and alternately push on each end to ensure it's seated. You can usually tell if there's larger bits of dirt when you snap the bearing in, in case something's happened since you cleaned the parts. With the bearing shells in the rod and cap, check the mating halves of the bearing and rod / cap for any dirt or grit and remove anything which doesn't belong. Apply a light coating of lube to the sides of the rod and cap, and to the bearing shells. Apply a light coating of lube to the crank. Avoid getting lube on the mating faces of the rod / cap and bearing shells. Remember that grease is not compressible and can interfere with these parts being bolted together as intended. Assemble the parts and torque the fasteners. Repeat until all bearings are installed.

These were the sort of tips I was looking for! So to confirm, you are NOT lubing the backside of the bearing that contacts the rod/cap correct? (as the note says to install dry into a dry rod?). That's something I definetly did NOT do with my first motor I built. I often wondered if it was over lubing it that killed it...

Also do you follow these same instructions - IE dry rod and bearings, and then lubing, BEFORE you plasti gauge? I would think the lube would slightly affect the results hence why I'm asking. So do you fully asssemble as normal prior to plasti gauging?

Quote:

There is much superstition in engine building. Guys develop a method which works and stick with it, even if it doesn't make sense. When you start asking opinions about how to assemble an engine, what lubricants to use and why, what brand parts and why, you may get completely opposite answers from two people who are both very competent. Keep that in mind as you talk with more people.

This is one thing that makes me feel more confident that I have noticed - because if two competent people suggest two very different things and both their engines work well.. then the suggestions must not be that critical I'd guess. But in my mind there is almost always a "best" way to do things, whether it be technically/scientifically superior way, or just cheaper, or faster. So that's why I'm asking this stuff.

Quote:

Oh, and my first engine threw a rod bearing, too.

Also encourging.. sorta.. haha. What kind of engine was it and do you know why it threw it?

Thanks so much as usual!
-Jim

You can remove the oil pressure sending unit and use a pump type oil can to pressurize the system. You can also remove the plugs and crank the engine, this often builds pressure a little sooner and it won't heat the starter as much. The length of the pickup tube helps explain the amount of time required for the presure to build. I crank my car and as soon as it starts to catch I turn it off. Then start immediately and find that oil pressure is good. There's probably something to be improved in the OEM system, however. The 455 Buick in my Monte has a longer pickup tube but the oil doesn't drain back in that engine anywhere near as badly as the 'bird.

You can set the number of reference pulses required before ignition and fuel are turned on within the ecm. Lowering the values make the car start right away, like an old carbureted car when it's warm. Increasing the values helps build oil pressure before the engine starts. Also watch the IAC park position. If it's too high, you'll get nasty rpm flare up on initial startup. Ford does that with most of their engines, and I always feel like the dang things are going to blow up.

DO NOT oil rod, crank, or bearing when checking size with plastigage. Plastigage is for checking the dry clearance between crank (or cam) and the bearing.

DO NOT put anything between rod and bearing shell when installing the bearings for the final time. When you remove the old shells you'll notice that the rod is amazingly free of oil. Oil between rod and brg prevents the bearing from seating properly and interferes with heat transfer.

Quote:

But in my mind there is almost always a "best" way to do things, whether it be technically/scientifically superior way, or just cheaper, or faster. So that's why I'm asking this stuff.

And this is exactly how the superstitions begin! If you did cartwheels the night before your engine build and the engine held up during the next day, maybe you'd decide that cartwheels have some magic power. And over the years you might even spend time developing a relationship between cartwheels and successful engine building. Does this mean there's something wrong with doing cartwheels before each rebuild? Not if it works for ya!

First engine rebuild was a 350 hp 327 Chevy smallblock which was installed with a Muncie 4speed in a Datsun 240Z. The exact reason the engine failed is because it overheated and lost oil pressure. It overheated because the girl in the passenger seat accidentally kicked the fan wire out of the junction box (she wasn't paying attention to wires or junction boxes at the time). It lost oil pressure because I didn't change the cam bearings during the rebuild causing the engine to have dangerously low oil pressure while hot and idling, and instead of taking a night off to drop the oil pan and install a high volume oil pump I just had to keep going out to have fun.

Questions are good.

-->Slow

Ok, now I get to weigh in. Let me start with the easy, unargueable stuff and then I'll stick my neck out a little.

Rod bolts - ARP # 109-6001. These are the Opel/Vauxhaul 2.0 liter 16V type. I honestly can't find my receipt right now but I know I gave the part number to Stef a while back and this number sounds familiar.

Rod bearings - this is an area where I'm a little too familiar. There are plenty of chioces available but I'll give my suggestions and you can do what you feel is right for you. Once upon a time GM used to use really stout Moraine 400 series, tri-metal bearings in their high performance engines. I can't recall what the turbo Sunbirds came with but if you have an original bearing kicking around look on the back and see what it says. If it's a Moraine 400 type you could go that route and sleep well.
Otherwise I'd only consider a quality, tri-metal bearing like a Clevite 77 for an engine like ours that sees lots of abuse from high loads. The Clevite part # for us is CBL 408P. Remember, if your crank has been machined undersize the bearings will say .025 and .050 on the back to indicate if they're .010" oversized (.025 MM) or .020" (.050 MM).
I went through two sets of Federal Mogul 1490 CPA rod bearings so I can't say I'm a big fan of theirs. I believe I was suffering from detonation problems too so I can't totally blame them but still....
Remember what Slow said about superstitions?

Vandervell makes excellent bearings but I couldn't get my hands on a set when I was re-doing mine. So I went on a journey to benefit me and all of Sunbird Turbo nation to find the ultimate rod bearing.
Remember our old pal Motorman 377? He told me there were rod bearings out there that were slightly wider than our shells but would fit right in the rods and offer better load distribution. Of course he never divulged the numbers to me.
So I did a bunch of checking and found the Isuzu 2.2 in the 1998 and up Amigo seemed to have a slightly wider bearing. The only place that had them available could only get them in the Clemex brand and the part # was CB1377P. Sure enough they are slightly wider and fill up the rod and cap nicely. The line up tang is slightly different from ours so you'd need to modify it a smidge. No big deal.
Problem is Clemex is a budget "rebuilder" type bearing and has no place in a He-man engine like ours. So I hunted anew and found a bearing made by the folks who brought us Drifting and Sushi - Toga of Japan.
Toga is the high performance line of a parent company whose name I forget but Toga's are made for nitrous, turbo and generally abused engines. They're tri-metal and have a special coating on them.
Amazingly there's a distributor for Toga in New Hampshire called Flatlander Racing and they had them in stock! The Toga part number is RBIS16-HPS and Flatlander's phone number is 603-378-0090. The guy who deals with the import stuff is a tool so keep that in mind if you call them.

On install I found they were the same width as the Sunbird bearing and the tang is just like ours. WTF?! Oh well, at some point you have to say enough is enough. Sorry Sunbird Nation.
So in retrospect if you can get a set of Clevite 77's you won't go wrong. The Togas have been working well for me if you want to go that route too.

Yes, the shells are installed dry and plasti-gauged dry as well. I use Lubriplate 105 engine assembly lube and have used it for years without any regrets. I agree checking with a bore gauge is better but 95% of my engines were assembled with plasti-gauge with no regrets. With the engine in the car and the crank still in what are you going to do anyways?
Make sure your new shells snap in to place snugly. Engines that detonate tend to egg shape the rod big ends so the bearings fit loosely. I couldn't see any obvious detonation marks on your bearings but pics are only so good.
I'm using Royal Purple Racing 51 oil now. We use some of their products at work and they came in and did their dog and pony show one day. What can I say? Their addiitive package works very well and after a couple of sets of rod bearings you'll want every ounce of protection you can get. Having fun changing your bearings? Want to do it again? No, I'm not on their payroll you haters!

By the same token my sister bought my car new and only used conventional motor oil for the 16 years she owned it. I had her in the habit of changing the oil around 2000 miles because she loved to beat on it. The only problem she ever had was a blown head gasket at 46,000 miles. I let Slow borrow the turbo off it and it worked fine for him and has never been rebuilt. So I have to wonder about ash deposits and that kinda stuff.

One other thing on rod bolts. You may not want to use the ARP's in your rods now because they have a different clamping force than stock and may cause the egg shaping effect when you torque them up. If you were re-sizing the rods they would just be torqued up and honed to size. You may want to check with your machinist or ARP to verify this. In that case just get a new set of GM's. They lasted this long right?

I had to laugh at your dealership mechanic comment since I was one years ago. I don't want to upset any dealership mechanics who may read this so I won't say any more. They probably found it funny too.

On a fresh engine fire-up I unplug the coil and crank it for short intervals until I get oil pressure. I'm 99% positive I did that when I fired this engine up for the first time. No, I'm not gonna prove it now since it's 11:45 PM and my family is asleep!

I think that'll do it. If not fire back. Oh and the first engine I ever rebuilt was an AMC 390 in my '69 AMX. The only thing it ever spun was tires.

Tony


Tony
1987 Sunbird GT turbo convert
Ported intake, Fiero 53 MM TB, 52 lb inj, ported and flowed head, tube header, Mitsu TD06, ARP rod
bolts/head studs, adj cam sprocket, 4" x 12" x 31" FMIC, Paxton AFPR, modified 125 trans/LSD
unit/3.42's, custom chip tuning, Alky Control Methanol injection
13.61 ET at 101.44 mph, 262 WHP/350WTQ

2009 Pontiac Solstice GXP roadster, 2.0 turbo w/GMPP exh, CAI and turbo upgrade, 290 hp/325 ft lbs

1969 Olds 442 convert
400 Eng, 200-4R trans, 3.73 posi, power everything, OAI

Quote:

Oh and the first engine I ever rebuilt was an AMC 390 in my '69 AMX. The only thing it ever spun was tires.

Damn you Tony. Faster cars and better luck with engines. I'm gonna sulk now.

Watch carefully when buying Clevite. There's a line of budget rebuilder Clevite bearings with an aluminum backing rather than steel. They're nowhere near as durable. My memory's not so good... they may be the Clemex bearings Tony's referring to. But I've seen 'em advertised as "Mexican Clevite 77 bearings." Hmmm... CLE vite, MEX ico, maybe we're onto something here.

Ok, I need to go sacrifice a Ricer Car to the Gods of Mechanical Things so I'll have good luck for another month. Sacrificing the car doesn't bother me, but lately I've been wondering if it would hurt anything to let the driver out first.

-->Slow

You know with that analytical mind of yours you could probably crack the whole Roswell mystery when you have a free moment. Don't look at me, I just figured out last week that Speed Racer's long lost brother is Racer X.

If you want to head over to the "Fools who've blown up countless 455 Oldsmobiles" forum you'll see I have a very high kill record. Oh well, it kept me off the streets at night.

I should have said you definitely want a metal backed bearing. Good catch my brutha.

Tony


Tony
1987 Sunbird GT turbo convert
Ported intake, Fiero 53 MM TB, 52 lb inj, ported and flowed head, tube header, Mitsu TD06, ARP rod
bolts/head studs, adj cam sprocket, 4" x 12" x 31" FMIC, Paxton AFPR, modified 125 trans/LSD
unit/3.42's, custom chip tuning, Alky Control Methanol injection
13.61 ET at 101.44 mph, 262 WHP/350WTQ

2009 Pontiac Solstice GXP roadster, 2.0 turbo w/GMPP exh, CAI and turbo upgrade, 290 hp/325 ft lbs

1969 Olds 442 convert
400 Eng, 200-4R trans, 3.73 posi, power everything, OAI

slowolej wrote:You can remove the oil pressure sending unit and use a pump type oil can to pressurize the system. You can also remove the plugs and crank the engine, this often builds pressure a little sooner and it won't heat the starter as much. The length of the pickup tube helps explain the amount of time required for the presure to build. I crank my car and as soon as it starts to catch I turn it off. Then start immediately and find that oil pressure is good. There's probably something to be improved in the OEM system, however. The 455 Buick in my Monte has a longer pickup tube but the oil doesn't drain back in that engine anywhere near as badly as the 'bird.

Pump type oil can eh ? Got a link/pic just so I am positive I know what you mean?
AS for removing the plugs, that's a good idea, hadn't considered it, should certainly make it prime a bit quicker.

Hadn't considered the pickup tube length as being the culprit, hmm. Another reason to want dry sump I suppose

Quote:

You can set the number of reference pulses required before ignition and fuel are turned on within the ecm. Lowering the values make the car start right away, like an old carbureted car when it's warm. Increasing the values helps build oil pressure before the engine starts. Also watch the IAC park position. If it's too high, you'll get nasty rpm flare up on initial startup. Ford does that with most of their engines, and I always feel like the dang things are going to blow up.

Interesting. I'll look into that, I'm assuming the value is self explanatory? If you happen to have the line/address of said value and a suggested value to input that would be cool

Quote:

DO NOT oil rod, crank, or bearing when checking size with plastigage. Plastigage is for checking the dry clearance between crank (or cam) and the bearing.

DO NOT put anything between rod and bearing shell when installing the bearings for the final time. When you remove the old shells you'll notice that the rod is amazingly free of oil. Oil between rod and brg prevents the bearing from seating properly and interferes with heat transfer.

Yeah, stuff I definetly didn't know oops. I definetly lubed the heck out of both sides of the bearigns when I did my first set in my old sunbird.... I'm sure that changed the clearences a bit.

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It overheated because the girl in the passenger seat accidentally kicked the fan wire out of the junction box (she wasn't paying attention to wires or junction boxes at the time).

That... had to be hard to digest!

2literturbo wrote:Rod bolts - ARP # 109-6001. These are the Opel/Vauxhaul 2.0 liter 16V type. I honestly can't find my receipt right now but I know I gave the part number to Stef a while back and this number sounds familiar.

Did you have to call them to get the #? Are these the Wave-Loc bolts? Is it a complete set of 8?

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Otherwise I'd only consider a quality, tri-metal bearing like a Clevite 77 for an engine like ours that sees lots of abuse from high loads. The Clevite part # for us is CBL 408P.

I'd like to first thank you myself and on the behalf of the community for screwing around with finding the "ultimate" rod bearings, it sounds like quite the goose chase and I'd have probobly done the same thing myself if I was researching this.

Clevite 77 is what I was hoping ot get, but I didn't know/hadn't looked to see if they had them for our App. Very cool. Do you have a suggested retailer to obtain them thru, and or, do you remember how much you got them for?

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Remember our old pal Motorman 377?

yeah what happened to him? I forget lol.

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. I use Lubriplate 105 engine assembly lube

Where do you pick it up?

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One other thing on rod bolts. You may not want to use the ARP's in your rods now because they have a different clamping force than stock and may cause the egg shaping effect when you torque them up. If you were re-sizing the rods they would just be torqued up and honed to size. You may want to check with your machinist or ARP to verify this. In that case just get a new set of GM's. They lasted this long right?

Ugh! What a kick in the confidence! Doh! I had never considered this. I don't have a machinest per se since my engine and crank are still in the car...

I brought up what you said on a local board I'm on. A few of teh guys said -after verifying that the new bearings are in spec using the stock rod bolts, plasti gauging them in multiple spots - check with plasti gauge again with teh new bearings, using the ARP bolts.. and see if the rod is still in spec and equal at all points checked.. ie.. still round.

Does this make sense? Do you agree that might be worthwhile or a good way to check for this issue? I'm thinking of checking the stock bolts and new bearings in 6 spots 3 on each side, writing down the values and doing the same thing with the ARP bolts and see if the values changed when torqued to spec.

When doing this, could you put in 6 strips of plasti gauge or would I have to do it one at a time?



Thanks guys!

The rod bolt number is right out of the catalog or off their web site (that's where I got it the night I wrote that). Those aren't the Wave Locs though they have a similar number. That is a set of 8 and I think they were around $80 bucks. ARP is expensive!

You and the Sunbird community are welcome. You can get Clevite's at any larger parts store chain (Napa, Advance Auto, etc), any automotive machine shop or our friends at Summit Racing. I think I paid $30 or $40 bucks for the set of mains I went with. Rod bearings are usually cheaper. The Toga's I bought were $70 or $80.

I don't know where Alan disappeared too. He probably got tired of trying to educate us dullards on the fine art of engine building. Too bad, he had a ton of knowledge in that head.

Lubriplate 105 should be available at Napa, Advance, etc. too. If you strike out I'll send you a tube.

Sorry for the buzz kill on the rod bolts. Yeah you could use 6 strips of plastigauge at once if you could get them all to stay put in there. Good luck with that! I usually have trouble with one strip.
It's actually recommended to place your plastigauge offset from the rod beam centerline so you get a more accurate reading. So maybe you could use 4 pieces rather than 6?
As I recall the recommended rod clearance is really tight. Mine were about 1 &1/2 thou and I have 75 lbs of oil pressure at road speed and 40 at idle hot. I have a small shim in the oil pump relief valve which helps a little but I have an oil cooler that usually hurts the pressure too.

Good luck Jim,

Tony



Tony
1987 Sunbird GT turbo convert
Ported intake, Fiero 53 MM TB, 52 lb inj, ported and flowed head, tube header, Mitsu TD06, ARP rod
bolts/head studs, adj cam sprocket, 4" x 12" x 31" FMIC, Paxton AFPR, modified 125 trans/LSD
unit/3.42's, custom chip tuning, Alky Control Methanol injection
13.61 ET at 101.44 mph, 262 WHP/350WTQ

2009 Pontiac Solstice GXP roadster, 2.0 turbo w/GMPP exh, CAI and turbo upgrade, 290 hp/325 ft lbs

1969 Olds 442 convert
400 Eng, 200-4R trans, 3.73 posi, power everything, OAI

Ok. final details lol.

First stupid question. for cleaning /drying/wiping engine parts you need to use a lint free cloth.. what do you guys use?

I tracked downt he bearings in stock at Autozone. CB1408P's. AE Clevite TM-77 type. Advance doesn't stock or order them instore, but they are on their website. $8 each Woot. Stock bearings I have don't say Moraine 400 so I'm assuming these are superior to stock then eh

Rod bolts: 109-6001 - Standard high performance 8740 bolts. $60 from ARP direct or $50 thru summit.
209-6003 - Pro Series ARP2000 Wave-loc bolts (the best they make). $100 thru ARP or $80 thru summit!

I talked to ARP. Said the rods "may" deform. They don't know and it differs by ap. Said that multiple plastigauges on a rod should reveal deformation as well as "wiggling" the rod side to side to check for binding.
The Standard bolts (which are far nicer then OEM) torque using ARP lube at 32 lbs. The Pro Series due to their higher clamping force torque at 38 lbs. So - if the rods are going to deform, then it's MORE likley with the Pro series..

Given that my motor isn't built , I'm thinking tI'll go with the standard bolts for now. I'm planning on picking A rod, first measuring clearences in multiple spots on it with plastigauge and the new bearigns and the OLD OEM bolts I have (they should be ok for torqueing to just check clearences right? reusing the old ones temporarily?), using motor oil as the bolt lube, and torqueing to GM specs. Writing down the measuremetns I take.

THEN cleaning the rods with brakelene, and doing the same thing again with the ARP bolts, and arp assembly lube, to THEIR specs, and writing down the measurements.

if it seems like tehy are "out of round" based on the measurements or the clearnences changed a bunch.. then buying new OEM bolts. If they didn't, then go with the ARP bolts.

Either way then putting the new bearings with whatever bolts, on all the rods, checking with a single plasti gauge on each for clearence check, then, lubing each of them with assembly lube on the crank side only, and torqueing them one last time.

Then praying. A lot.

Does this sound like a plan guys? If so I'll order the ARP bolts on Monday.. If any step of this makes you cringe, lemme know....

Sounds like you're on the right track. I concur.
Now will you email me about your trick suspension?

Tony


Tony
1987 Sunbird GT turbo convert
Ported intake, Fiero 53 MM TB, 52 lb inj, ported and flowed head, tube header, Mitsu TD06, ARP rod
bolts/head studs, adj cam sprocket, 4" x 12" x 31" FMIC, Paxton AFPR, modified 125 trans/LSD
unit/3.42's, custom chip tuning, Alky Control Methanol injection
13.61 ET at 101.44 mph, 262 WHP/350WTQ

2009 Pontiac Solstice GXP roadster, 2.0 turbo w/GMPP exh, CAI and turbo upgrade, 290 hp/325 ft lbs

1969 Olds 442 convert
400 Eng, 200-4R trans, 3.73 posi, power everything, OAI

for cleaning engine stuff )at least the final time before the parts go in) i have a solvent tank and blow parts off with compressed air. if you dont have that, use brake clean (not engine degreaser) and a lint free cloth that has been in the washing machine a couple times (even lint free isnt 100% lint free till its been washed)

as for the rod bolts, any time you replace the rod bolts, get the rods resized. basicly the shave a couple thousants off the rod cap mating surface, torque the cap on to the given spec, then re-machine the rod and this makes sure that perfectly round when the bolts are torqued. this is a very important step, if its not done, even if you dont see any distortion through the plastigauge, will cause the bearings to wear unevenly.