So one quick question would I be better off with the GM head for now and then swap in the spring and retainers that airtronics has for my stage 2 cams or would that just be over kill?
-MD- LD9 wrote:I emailed them about the install height, and all i got back was.
"We are not responsible for misuse or improper installation."
Classic. Email them back and ask who is responsible their misinformation causing damage.
- 93 mph in the 1/8 mile
Member of J-Body Of Michigan.
josh- the gm head is the best way to go period and then if you get a cam. upgrade to the gm/bates valvetrain as in retainers and dual valve springs
here's my beef.. I'm getting different numbers for eco installed height.
on allecotec.com:
Seat Pressure 94lb @ 1.362"
Open Pessure 232lb @ .492" Lift
this is for the GM racing springs.
why would they give you seat pressure at 1.362"? because thats closed pressure... in other words installed height is 1.362"
gm buildbook:
installed height
1.210" on in/ex
seat pressure closed is 92lbs
so I'm not sure what the beef is with the GM racing springs.. they say stock replacement, but.. are they really?
time to make some phone calls to allecotec, bates engineering, and M2race.
Thank you Bonnett I have the cams already installed on the stock head but I know there is more to be had with an upgraded valvtrain and head.
DaFlyinSkwir(LS61) /PJ/ OEM+ wrote:here's my beef.. I'm getting different numbers for eco installed height.
on allecotec.com:
Seat Pressure 94lb @ 1.362"
Open Pessure 232lb @ .492" Lift
this is for the GM racing springs.
why would they give you seat pressure at 1.362"? because thats closed pressure... in other words installed height is 1.362"
gm buildbook:
installed height
1.210" on in/ex
seat pressure closed is 92lbs
so I'm not sure what the beef is with the GM racing springs.. they say stock replacement, but.. are they really?
time to make some phone calls to allecotec, bates engineering, and M2race.
That makes the install height about 36.42 mm for the gm springs if that is accurate. And according to the build book the installed height would be 32.36 if that is accurate. So GM's springs would be just as tall if not taller than the Supertech's, according to allecotec. Ok so now we've got conridicting information. What's the truth.
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4 Cams...32 Valves...5 Liters...This Could Get Fun!
The truth is this....GM @!#$ us over again and still hasn't learned to use lube when they do it. Why is nothing on this engine normal? Could this be the secret to why it's so damn good? Because they did everything weird?
I used to race cars, now I race myself.
5K PB: 24:50
10K PB: 54:26
just called and talked to M2race systems.
here's a video of an LSJ head being CNC'd
based in farmingdale nj
20 mins from me
they port both L61 heads and LSJ heads
@ .450 lift the L61 head flows 298cfm
anybody wanna buy my old patriot head? it needs a new valvetrain and should be ready to go (at the least, 2 exhaust valves +1mm need to be replaced)
The springs on on Karo's site have their specifications measured at 1.362" The installed height is truly 1.21, we measured it to be certain which is also what the GM Eco build book says. I'm not sure why they rated those springs at 1.362 unless they were for another application. It seems like they would run into the same coil bind issues as the IPG Supertechs however no way of knowing without more information (which the site doesn't supply) or a spring that could be measured.
My head is fully assembled now with the PSI springs, trick titanium retainers and the SI valves. Maybe I'll post some pictures later.
12.770 @ 111.99 Intercooled Eaton M62
i spoke to bates engineering today.
here's what I grabbed from him (he talks fast and a 30 min conversation)
valvetrain geometry is very important to the longevity of the head. Cams with a base circle not close to stock will throw the geometry off pretty bad.
stock base cam circle is 1.171" (bottom of the lobe at the smallest point READ: NOT the tip of the lobe)
he also said that eco heads designed for HIGH lift need the valveseats machined down .0025"-.0030"
the bates engineering springs are a direct drop-in spring and support .499" lift
I'm pretty sure the GM racing springs are the same set.
He also mentioned that the patriot springs seem to be .0020" too large diameter wise for the valveseat, and that the center springs tend to bind and wear the outer springs confirming what has been mentioned in this thread.
His statement pretty much confirms my thoughts. He's informing people to drill the valve seat down further to increase the installed height. Not sure I'd want to go that route but if there's enough material it's an option. It was something Todd and I had considered but didn't feel comfortable with it so we went with springs that could handle the lift at the eco's factory installed height. I'm assuming to achieve the .499 lift you'd have to modify the seat. If the spring is the same height/diameter as a stock spring I don't see it taking that much lift without coil bind. Unless it has fewer but stronger coils, which is what mine have but they are also larger in diameter than stock.
I wouldn't mind being able to test a GM spring however it's really not that big of a deal to me since I'm happy with the current setup. If the GM springs work, they are cheaper anyways
12.770 @ 111.99 Intercooled Eaton M62
I'm in Europe, using a full Schrick valvetrain, with 12mm valve lift cams (~.472" I think)
Fitting instructions for these are : Remove 0.3 to 0.5mm from the Schrick lower retainer (spring seat), do not touch the head
I guess this is much safer than machining the head, and Schrick definitely knows what they do (if you are not used to who Schrick are, it is one of the main Formula 1 cams supplier, definitely Roush/GMPP level)
I'll try to get my hands on my invoice to get the full specs of the springs for you all
Alanoo that's interesting. I wonder if their lower retainers are really thick? The stock ecotec spring seats are part of the valve seal and are not thick enough to consider taking material away. Do you have any pictures of that setup or have the specifications from the actual spring they used?
12.770 @ 111.99 Intercooled Eaton M62
Stock "umbrella" valve seals could not be used with high lift too, you'll have to change them for the GMR/Bates part
Ok, this is a simple copy/paste of the parts on my invoice (from the full Schrick camshaft kit) :
024202054 Ventilfeder
Da=28 Di=21 d=3,5 L1=32,7 L2=20,3 S=12,4
F1=200 F2=530
024202019 Ventilfeder
Da=20,2 Di=15,9 d=2,15 L1=28,7 L2=16,3 S=12,4
F1=90 F2=190
041213004 Ventilfederteller oben Titan
für Feder 024202054/024202019
14,25° MK6 d1=Ø21 d2=Ø15,9 h=2,0
089500820 Unterlegscheibe
Ø1=16,00mm / Ø2=28,00mm / s=1,00mm
Translated and converted it should be something like :
024202054 Spring
Da=1.102" Di=0.827" d=0.138" L1=1.287" L2=0.799" S=0.488"
F1=200 F2=530
024202019 Spring
Da=0.795" Di=0.625" d=0.0846" L1=1.130" L2=0.642" S=0.488"
F1=90 F2=190
041213004 Titanium upper retainer for springs 024202054/024202019
14,25° MK6 d1=Ø0.826" d2=Ø0.626" h=0.0787"
089500820 Lower retainer
Ø1=0.630" / Ø2=1.102" / s=0.0393" (<- this is where you have to skim some few tenths of mm)
Alanoo wrote:Stock "umbrella" valve seals could not be used with high lift too, you'll have to change them for the GMR/Bates part
Ok, this is a simple copy/paste of the parts on my invoice (from the full Schrick camshaft kit) :
024202054 Ventilfeder
Da=28 Di=21 d=3,5 L1=32,7 L2=20,3 S=12,4
F1=200 F2=530
024202019 Ventilfeder
Da=20,2 Di=15,9 d=2,15 L1=28,7 L2=16,3 S=12,4
F1=90 F2=190
041213004 Ventilfederteller oben Titan
für Feder 024202054/024202019
14,25° MK6 d1=Ø21 d2=Ø15,9 h=2,0
089500820 Unterlegscheibe
Ø1=16,00mm / Ø2=28,00mm / s=1,00mm
Translated and converted it should be something like :
024202054 Spring
Da=1.102" Di=0.827" d=0.138" L1=1.287" L2=0.799" S=0.488"
F1=200 F2=530
024202019 Spring
Da=0.795" Di=0.625" d=0.0846" L1=1.130" L2=0.642" S=0.488"
F1=90 F2=190
041213004 Titanium upper retainer for springs 024202054/024202019
14,25° MK6 d1=Ø0.826" d2=Ø0.626" h=0.0787"
089500820 Lower retainer
Ø1=0.630" / Ø2=1.102" / s=0.0393" (
What do you think the units for F1 and F2 are?
If the are in Pounds, then that makes 290/720 insanely way too high.
If they are in Newtons, then that makes 290/720 somewhat weak... if I recall correctly, as weak as or less than stock.
sig not found
Quote:
Da [mm] Outer diam
Di [mm] Inner diam
d [mm] Wire diameter
L1 [mm] Max installed height
L2 [mm] Min operating height
S [mm] Max valve lift
F1 [N] Force at L1
F2 [N] Force at L2
I don't remember how the stock springs are rated but I think these ones are stiffer by a very sensible margin... Just looking at how harder it was to turn the cams by hand when sorting the timing and how the engine stalls really instantaneously when turning it off it certainly looks like they are stiffer than OE.
Oh remember too it is a N/A camshaft kit so it is not designed to run with any boost and heavier valves
I fitted my supertech 94 lb spring kit today to my LSJ head and took some measurements.
un-installed spring height = 45mm
installed spring height = 33.6mm (just measuring the spring, not the seats)
NA stage 3 cams maximum lift = 11.6mm
that gives a spring height of 22mm at maximum lift, so I compressed a spring in my vice to 22mm and measured the coil gaps.
this pic shows a 0.5mm steel ruler between the coils, it is a lose fit, so there should not be a problem with coil bind.
where did you get the installed height of 33.6mm from? Supertech? If so that's only where they rated the spring, that doesn't mean it's what the installed height is on your particular setup. However I'm not certain if the LSJ head you mentioned has a different installed height than the 2.2 ecotec head.
Anyways 33.6mm is 1.32" yet the ecotec installed height is 1.21" or 30.73mm so you're still not accounting for everything here.
This is right from supertech's website:
76 lbs seat pressure -- 76 lbs @ 34.60mm
13.90mm Max Net Lift
20.70mm Coil Bind
12.10 lbs/mm Rate
30.73 (eco installed height) - 20.7 (actual coil bind per supertech) = 10.02mm or .384"
As Todd posted before, supertechs coil bind at 3.85 lift which does not even account for a safe range so it's actually even less than that.
12.770 @ 111.99 Intercooled Eaton M62
Just read this whole thread and my head hurts, lmao... but good info, I got LZM tri flows and doing research on if I need upgraded springs or not.
Don't buy from MANTAPART!!
There is no easy ways to get HP, no magic box or gizmo... And if you get more hp, there's no way to make your car still behave and sound like a stock one. More hp usually makes your car louder, more vibrations and harder to drive...but still people hope or think maby there's some magic way to have it all, comfort, stock sound and drive.
Airtonics, you can see the offset the supertech retainer has here :
http://www.z22se.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=115&t=10177&start=50#p117146
It is from the 94 lbs kit, so not the same as in the other topic. I even think the offset is a bit different than the one in Tom' topic.
Of course, this still don't give us the real supertech springs installed height, but this shows and confirms these are definitely not installed at stock ECO height
I would think the retainers are the same for all their kits, the different options I've seen appear only to be for the resistance of the spring itself. Regardless thanks for posting the picture. We still need to know the new installed height with the modified retainers to get some real numbers however them working adequately seems more possible now. I wish they would post this info on their website!
12.770 @ 111.99 Intercooled Eaton M62
I measured the valve springs once they were installed in the LSJ head to get the installed height
vocky . wrote:I measured the valve springs once they were installed in the LSJ head to get the installed height
vocky . wrote:installed spring height = 33.6mm (just measuring the spring, not the seats)
How did you actually measure them "in the head" with out usung the seats and come up with an actual installed height?
Also, while the retainer pics show 2 different looking retainers, they do not show anything that indicates the differences will result in a different installed height.
sig not found
if you look at the retainers the locks sit is the same spot on the valve (read: the springs retainer can sit higher that the stock retainer) therefor allowing the spring to be slightly uncompressed for a larger installed height. In theory you could make/machine a retainer to set the installed height to whatever you wanted by altering the offset in height from the valve locks to the underside of the retainer. since the Ecotec (Not ECOTECH <---god I hate that, its written on the d@mn engine!) anyway since it uses hydraulic lash adjusters (that use oil pressure to set the valve lash) as long as they don't bottom out in their recess you can set the installed height to whatever you need by machining this offset into your retainers.
-Also another note on the lash adjusters- if your spring pressure is TOO high this will overpower the force under the lash adjusters and push them down INSTEAD of the valves! until they bottom out. the guys at Bates engineering told me this (in case you had any doubts!) and to fix this situation they set the valve lash with solid lifters (i.e. shimstock or other PRECICELY machined size of metal underneath the lifters.
2.2 L Ecotec, P&P Head, Stage 3 Comp Cams, Supertech 76 lb Spring kit, Supertech Oversized Valves, Wiseco 8.9:1 CR Pistons, Eagle H-Beam Rods, Home-Built Turbo Kit T3/T4 57 Trim Intercooled, 78 lb/hr Racetronix Hi-Z injectors, Aeromotive FPR, Racetronix f body fuel pump,MEGASQUIRT MS3 + MS3X Finally street tuned on 21 lbs! Now if only I could get it to hook....
