I am looking into rebuilding my 2.4 twin cam with a manual in my 1996 Sunfire GT. I am wanting to go N/A and put down between 250 to 300 WHP. I have looked all over the internet and asked a few people about preformance parts for these cars and no one can seem to give me a straight answer to this question. I am hoping someone on here can lead me in the right direction for doing this. I want to put larger cams, massage the head, bigger injectors, large throttle body, fully forged motor. I want to run at least 11.5 to 12.5 compression. If anyone can give me any ideas on what to do with this i would greatly appreciate it.
Why not? What did Karo put down?
Don't be so quick to discourage the newbs, The guy has a thirst for knowledge, help him out instead of giving an answer without a reason.
Aaron Bennett wrote:I am looking into rebuilding my 2.4 twin cam with a manual in my 1996 Sunfire GT. I am wanting to go N/A and put down between 250 to 300 WHP. I have looked all over the internet and asked a few people about preformance parts for these cars and no one can seem to give me a straight answer to this question. I am hoping someone on here can lead me in the right direction for doing this. I want to put larger cams, massage the head, bigger injectors, large throttle body, fully forged motor. I want to run at least 11.5 to 12.5 compression. If anyone can give me any ideas on what to do with this i would greatly appreciate it.
got a straight answer. go search the top 25 hp lists then start from there.
I'm not trying to be rude but search man search!!
Aaron Bennett wrote:I am looking into rebuilding my 2.4 twin cam with a manual in my 1996 Sunfire GT. I am wanting to go N/A and put down between 250 to 300 WHP. I have looked all over the internet and asked a few people about preformance parts for these cars and no one can seem to give me a straight answer to this question. I am hoping someone on here can lead me in the right direction for doing this. I want to put larger cams, massage the head, bigger injectors, large throttle body, fully forged motor. I want to run at least 11.5 to 12.5 compression. If anyone can give me any ideas on what to do with this i would greatly appreciate it.
First off, the people that say it cannot be done are liars IMO, however it cannot be done cheaply, and well its not going to have the greatest street manors. Most of the parts are going to have to be 'one off' (ex cams + carriers), intake manifold, header, etc. Now can you honestly budget something like this and go through with it? Your not talking about a small chunk of change here especially if your going to have to rely on others to do alot of the fab/build work for you.
_______________________
** Flat Broke Racing Inc.**
LD9/LD2 N/A
Standing Name HP TQ Dyno Type
1 Karo 259.00 Dynojet LD9 N/A
2 Scott (Section8cav) 193.60 170.00 Dynojet LD9 hybrid N/A
3 Scott (Goodwrencher) 184.90 194.00 Dynojet LD9 hybrid N/A
4 Extreme Delusions (SpeedlineZ) 171.00 Dynojet LD9 N/A
4 Brian aka SpeedRacerZ 171.00 Dynojet LD9 N/A
6 Paul Tjepkes 167.00 LD9 N/A
7 Mike, -MD-LD9 159.80 Mustang LD9 N/A
8 Jason McFly 157.00 171.00 Mustang LD9 N/A
9 John Higgins 151.46 149.44 Dynojet LD9 N/A
10 z yaaaa 151.40 149.00 Dynojet LD9 N/A
Karo's build
Engine Modifications:
2.3 HO Ported Intake Manifold
Accell 92-96 Corvette LT1 Adjustable Fuel
Pressure Regulator
Apexi Super AFC
ARP Head Studs
ARP Main Studs
Blueprinted Engine
Balanced Engine
Car Customs Upper Engine Mount Insert
Car Customs Lower Engine Mount
Car Customs Stainless Steel Competition Intake
Valves
Car Customs Stainless Steel Competition Exhaust
Valves
Car Customs Competition Valve Springs
Car Customs 75mm Throttle Body
Car Customs 4 Inch Race Intake System
Car Customs 4-1 Header 1 Ύ Inch Primaries 3
Inch Down Pipe
Clevite 77 Rod Bearings
Clevite 77 Main Bearings
Eagle Forged Connecting Rods
Holley 255 LHP High Output Fuel Pump
Miller Performance Port & Polish Head
Miller Performance Gear Driven Oil Pump
Miller Performance 2.4L LD9 Competition Crank
Miller Performance 75mm Throttle Body Flange
Miller Performance Competition Oil Pan
Miller Performance Crank Gear
Miller Performance Competition Prep Block
Miller Performance Competition Intake Cam
Miller Performance Competition Exhaust Cam
Miller Performance Exhaust Lifters
Miller Performance Intake Lifters
Miller Performance Exhaust Cam Tower
Miller Performance Intake Cam Tower
MSD DIS II Programmable
NGK TR6 Spark Plugs
Nitrous Express Single EFI Nitrous Kit
Nitrous Express Gen X II Kit
ORinged Block
OBD-1 Computer Conversion
W41 Racing Chip
Pro Precision Billet Nitrous Bottle Bracket
RC Engineering 320cc Injectors
SCE Gaskets Copper Head Gasket .060 Thick
SPEC Custom Competition Clutch Kit
SPEC 8.8 LBS Billet Aluminum Flywheel
Unorthodox Crank Pulley
Venom Fuel Rail
Wiseco 10.5:1 Compression Forged Pistons
Wiseco 91mm Piston Rings
Wiseco Chrome-Moly Wrist Pins
Transmission Modifications:
B&M Racing Short Throw Shifter
Cryo-Treated Gears
Cryo-Treated Transmission Case
Drive Shaft Shop Stage II Axles
Miller Performance Built Racing Transmission
Quaife Limited Slip Deferential
Suspension Modifications:
ARP Competition Wheel Studs
Car Customs Sub Frame Brace
Car Customs Control Arm Bushing
Car Customs Rear Strut Tower Brace
Ground Control Custom Rear Coil Over System
Ground Control Custom Front Coil Over System
Koni Reds Custom Drag Racing Front Struts
Koni Reds Custom Drag Racing Rear Shocks
Polyurethane Front End Link Bushings
Polyurethane Rear End Link Bushings
Monro Front Strut Mount
Monro Rear Strut Mount
Brake Modifications:
Power Stop Cross Drilled Front Rotors
Power Stop Extreme Performance Front Brake
Pads
Wheels:
Bogart Front Racing Rims 15x8
Bogart Rear Racing Rims 15x3.5
Mickey Thompson Racing Slicks 24.5x8x15
Mickey Thompson Racing Skinny Slicks 25x4x15
Anything is possible with enough money. If you make 200WHP I would applaud you.
PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO
ScreamSayonara wrote:Why not? What did Karo put down?
Don't be so quick to discourage the newbs, The guy has a thirst for knowledge, help him out instead of giving an answer without a reason.
lets lie then..
easy, put it on a 1\4 Horse Dyno!
Really, why don't you teach him then.
Go to the library\book stork, and start buying some engine building bucks, cam timing, tuning,ectra.
250-300 NA from a 146 CI engine.......... is pushing it NA.
Chris
'02 Z-24 Supercharged
13.7 @102.45 MPH Third Place, 2007 GMSC Bash SOLD AS OF 01MAR08
I think what most are trying to say is 300whp N/A in a daily driven street J-body on a budget is not going to happen. If you have to come and ask what needs to be done then you do not have alot of engine building knowledge to do it on your own. With a unlimited budget and knowledge for a race car you can do it. It just would not be practical for daily driving.
FU Tuning
Aaron, what they're telling you is the gospel.. anything over 200 whp N/A in a 2.4 will cost you no less than 3,500-4,000 bucks. (if you want it to make more than 1 pull)... Consider it this way.. you're trying to gain atleast 70 h.p to the wheels N/A with a 4 banger. Like you, I started out shooting for the stars with an N/A build. It's taken a junk load of money and tons of time and I'm still working on it. If you still want to go that route, there's alot of info on this site that will help you. Check the sticky's, and then search the forums. Good luck bro
When I step on the gas, I want people to think the world is coming to an end! - Homer J. Simpson
they are all right...you need to aim alittle more realistic ...250-300 on a BOOSTED engine would be fairly easy....NA is a differnt story though..take it from me...im #2 on that list..and i spent THOUSANDS getting to that point and im still no where near karo and frankly dont think i ever will.....but good luck !!
Taetsch Z-24 wrote:ScreamSayonara wrote:Why not? What did Karo put down?
Don't be so quick to discourage the newbs, The guy has a thirst for knowledge, help him out instead of giving an answer without a reason.
lets lie then..
easy, put it on a 1\4 Horse Dyno!
Really, why don't you teach him then.
Go to the library\book stork, and start buying some engine building bucks, cam timing, tuning,ectra.
250-300 NA from a 146 CI engine.......... is pushing it NA.
Chris
how is that pushing it, $ wise its not going to be easy but anything can be done
dragsters make 8000hp from 500ci so 16hp per ci
why can't a guy make 300hp from 146ci?
grill me if you want but don't discourage him as anything can be done
Click my pic for my trucky
John Higgins wrote:I think what most are trying to say is 300whp N/A in a daily driven street J-body on a budget is not going to happen. If you have to come and ask what needs to be done then you do not have alot of engine building knowledge to do it on your own. With a unlimited budget and knowledge for a race car you can do it. It just would not be practical for daily driving.
i second that
Click my pic for my trucky
Gary Halsey wrote:Taetsch Z-24 wrote:ScreamSayonara wrote:Why not? What did Karo put down?
Don't be so quick to discourage the newbs, The guy has a thirst for knowledge, help him out instead of giving an answer without a reason.
lets lie then..
easy, put it on a 1\4 Horse Dyno!
Really, why don't you teach him then.
Go to the library\book stork, and start buying some engine building bucks, cam timing, tuning,ectra.
250-300 NA from a 146 CI engine.......... is pushing it NA.
Chris
how is that pushing it, $ wise its not going to be easy but anything can be done
dragsters make 8000hp from 500ci so 16hp per ci
why can't a guy make 300hp from 146ci?
grill me if you want but don't discourage him as anything can be done
Have you noticed the SUPERCHARGER sitting on top of those engines? Or the TURBOCHARGER(S) mounted next to them. The OP wants N/A power, not boosted power.
Bagged Base Coupe (Tinkles) wrote:Have you noticed the SUPERCHARGER sitting on top of those engines? Or the TURBOCHARGER(S) mounted next to them. The OP wants N/A power, not boosted power.
x2 DUUURRRRR
2010 Subaru Impreza WRX Limited
1999 Cavalier Z24 Supercharged
1999 Grand AM SE (Beater Car)
1997 GMC Sierra
2007 Honda CBR 600RR
2005 Honda TRX450R
John Higgins wrote:I think what most are trying to say is 300whp N/A in a daily driven street J-body on a budget is not going to happen. If you have to come and ask what needs to be done then you do not have alot of engine building knowledge to do it on your own. With a unlimited budget and knowledge for a race car you can do it. It just would not be practical for daily driving.
maybe Karo can chime in, but wasnt his 2.4 streetable?
Im a Xbox 360 fanboy...and damn proud of it!!
Gary Halsey wrote:Taetsch Z-24 wrote:ScreamSayonara wrote:Why not? What did Karo put down?
Don't be so quick to discourage the newbs, The guy has a thirst for knowledge, help him out instead of giving an answer without a reason.
lets lie then..
easy, put it on a 1\4 Horse Dyno!
Really, why don't you teach him then.
Go to the library\book stork, and start buying some engine building bucks, cam timing, tuning,ectra.
250-300 NA from a 146 CI engine.......... is pushing it NA.
Chris
how is that pushing it, $ wise its not going to be easy but anything can be done
dragsters make 8000hp from 500ci so 16hp per ci
why can't a guy make 300hp from 146ci?
grill me if you want but don't discourage him as anything can be done
Why does every one think i do this!
IM BEING HONEST
scott (section8cav) wrote:they are all right...you need to aim alittle more realistic ...250-300 on a BOOSTED engine would be fairly easy....NA is a differnt story though..take it from me...im #2 on that list..and i spent THOUSANDS getting to that point and im still no where near karo and frankly dont think i ever will.....but good luck !!
ahhh....
old W41's with some help from the Rocket Parts book can do it.....(the 200 WHP Easy)
after i get some kind of good header that i like, or just redo my secoundarys on mine now, get a good tune (Thanks Brandon!) it will be run\Dynoed, but for how it hangs with Tom's Bault SS, stage II, with Team
GREEN Tuning......... it should be a bit over 180 crank
Chris
'02 Z-24 Supercharged
13.7 @102.45 MPH Third Place, 2007 GMSC Bash SOLD AS OF 01MAR08
99redz24 wrote:John Higgins wrote:I think what most are trying to say is 300whp N/A in a daily driven street J-body on a budget is not going to happen. If you have to come and ask what needs to be done then you do not have alot of engine building knowledge to do it on your own. With a unlimited budget and knowledge for a race car you can do it. It just would not be practical for daily driving.
maybe Karo can chime in, but wasnt his 2.4 streetable?
Streetable motor wise yes, but I do not think he ever really drove it on the streety much. It is a race car now. Not saying he can't make it a street car, just not practical.
FU Tuning
Yeah i wasn't sure on this idea, but at the moment thats all it was. I just didn't know if anyone had ever done this before to one of these cars. I will probably look into going turbo then. I have plenty of knowledge with building motors and playing with high hp cars they are just small block and big block applications. I have been building and tuning motors for a speed shop here in town for a few years now. I have looked in the boost forum for anyone who has boosted a 2.4 but so far its pretty vague on doing a 2.4 turbo system. I will post in there and ask around for some ideas on what system and how its all ran. Thanks for the info. I greatly appreciate it. Will let everyone know when this project starts and how it goes. Thanks Aaron
karo's build had a nuclear weapon. TODD MILLER OF MILLER PERFORMANCE.
no idea how this man gets the numbers from the ld9 that he has, must be doing SOMETHING that several other professional machine shop/engine builders arent because he managed to squeeze over 60whp MORE of out an engine that several people have never seen 200whp with. 60whp MORE guys... thats a third more power over what many many others have tried and accomplished.
it can be debated that the lightweight racing rims and lightweight drag radials had something to do with it.
it can be debated that nitrous was used and forgotten about.
it can be debated that the dyno was EXTREMELY off.
for the reputation that karo and todd miller have on here, i dont see how they could lie about this. but, it has and always will seem fishy to me the numbers the slowfire threw down until someone puts down similar numbers, i will be skeptical.
LEAVING FOR BASH TOMORROW!! WOOt!!!!!!!!
z yaaaa wrote:karo's build had a nuclear weapon. TODD MILLER OF MILLER PERFORMANCE.
no idea how this man gets the numbers from the ld9 that he has, must be doing SOMETHING that several other professional machine shop/engine builders arent because he managed to squeeze over 60whp MORE of out an engine that several people have never seen 200whp with. 60whp MORE guys... thats a third more power over what many many others have tried and accomplished.
it can be debated that the lightweight racing rims and lightweight drag radials had something to do with it.
it can be debated that nitrous was used and forgotten about.
it can be debated that the dyno was EXTREMELY off.
for the reputation that karo and todd miller have on here, i dont see how they could lie about this. but, it has and always will seem fishy to me the numbers the slowfire threw down until someone puts down similar numbers, i will be skeptical.
2hp per cubic inch is not really an impossible task with the proper parts selection and work done. 3hp/cid is now getting into the limit and hard to do zone. My reasoning for Karo/Todd doing what they did is they actually took the time and cash to do it and do it properly. But then again i'm not even going to get into my usual saying around here because i always get flamed when i say it by people going 'Yo'z Bitchez i gots alotta dolla billz soaked into miiiiiiiiine engine too with da d.i.y first timerz port'npolishzz job, and throwns together parts homiez'
_______________________
** Flat Broke Racing Inc.**
z yaaaa wrote:karo's build had a nuclear weapon. TODD MILLER OF MILLER PERFORMANCE.
no idea how this man gets the numbers from the ld9 that he has, must be doing SOMETHING that several other professional machine shop/engine builders arent because he managed to squeeze over 60whp MORE of out an engine that several people have never seen 200whp with. 60whp MORE guys... thats a third more power over what many many others have tried and accomplished.
it can be debated that the lightweight racing rims and lightweight drag radials had something to do with it.
it can be debated that nitrous was used and forgotten about.
it can be debated that the dyno was EXTREMELY off.
for the reputation that karo and todd miller have on here, i dont see how they could lie about this. but, it has and always will seem fishy to me the numbers the slowfire threw down until someone puts down similar numbers, i will be skeptical.
We have not seen many builds like Karo's. Not many build our motors N/A to start with.
You could also say that a couple of the other N/A builds were not impressive because they are not much higher than some bolt on N/A 2.4's. It can be looked at from both sides. I personally do not think we have even seen the beginning of what this motor can do N/A. When Karo did it that was before HPT. I for got what they used for tuning on his car, but only in recent years we have gotten good tuning option.
FU Tuning
^^^95 OBD1, If I remember correctly
PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO
John Higgins wrote: z yaaaa wrote: for the reputation that karo and todd miller have on here, i dont see how they could lie about this. but, it has and always will seem fishy to me the numbers the slowfire threw down until someone puts down similar numbers, i will be skeptical.
We have not seen many builds like Karo's. Not many build our motors N/A to start with.
You could also say that a couple of the other N/A builds were not impressive because they are not much higher than some bolt on N/A 2.4's. It can be looked at from both sides. I personally do not think we have even seen the beginning of what this motor can do N/A. When Karo did it that was before HPT. I for got what they used for tuning on his car, but only in recent years we have gotten good tuning option.
z yaaaa- how about factoring in the many witnesses who have seen the car in person besting most turbo times as additional evidence? I can fully accept skeptics for all the reasons you give, but his car also ran 12.0s in the quarter, which has to back up some of the other #s given.
John- the car is OBD1 aka 95 2.3 PCM which I had been chipping for many years before HPT.
Aaron Bennett wrote:Yeah i wasn't sure on this idea, but at the moment thats all it was. I just didn't know if anyone had ever done this before to one of these cars. I will probably look into going turbo then. I have plenty of knowledge with building motors and playing with high hp cars they are just small block and big block applications. I have been building and tuning motors for a speed shop here in town for a few years now......... Thanks Aaron
Aaron Bennett- This will sound wayyyyyyy cockier than its meant to, but there is no way else to say it... The biggest issue for you is that you asked, particularly this forum. There is nothing secret about build any high power engine and with the experience you claim to have, you shouldn't need to ask.
Then you asked here, a forum with a majority of noticible builds that only make about half the power of what you asked for in the form (NA) you want to do it.
None of that gives me a warm feeling about your chances of accomplishing it ever.
The turbo idea is good and easy. And there is a ton of info around here due to its popularity here.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Thursday, July 24, 2008 6:03 AM
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color me stunned, john....
scott's 2.6 stroker
brian's turbo motor n/a
speedlineZ's build
paul tjepkes' n/a build
those engines had TONS done, way more then mere bolt-ons. none have hit 200whp.
todd, im not calling you out, im not calling you or karo a lier. i am just simply amazed at your building skills, for you to squeeze that much more outta this engine over what so many others have tried is nothing short of god like, thats what its so un-believable.
so the heads and cams.... basically what i can see that your getting the extra power. how much for a head exactly like karo's and cams exactly like karo's?
Z YAAAA AT THE BASH, @!#$S!!!!!
