where'd my engine go?
oh.. there it is
let's see what we have here...
hmm that doesn't look right...
how come this isn't in place?
top = normal lash adjuster, bottom = broken lash adjuster that let the follower fall out of position
normal cylinder
cracked ringland
normal cylinder (flash on)
cracked ringland (flash on)
engine chillin in the shop
jay messin around with the head
cams removed, valves inspected. the head is ok (might have leaky valve seals but otherwise checks out)
so here's the synopsis:
cracked ringland happened during a track run on a lean afr at high rpm. detonation cracked off a piece of the piston and smashed the plug closed. plug was physically reopened with a screwdriver and the engine ran ok.
about a month later, (3 days ago) the engine started sounding like a WRX. checked the plugs and didn't find any smashed.. so I pulled the engine. Found the broken lash adjuster.
I'd imagine repeated high rpm abuse took its toll on the factory lash adjusters and this one simply failed. The strange thing is, its in the same cylinder that had the cracked ringland. I'm wondering if the two are related..
regardless, all my valves are spotless, no bends, no dings or scratches. just excessive carbon buildup. and possible leaking valve stem seals.
interesting fact:
all the pistons have a small depression in the same area as the missing ringland in the #3 piston. I'm wondering if that is some kind of hotspot in the combustion chamber due to injector spray pattern, or cylinder fill or something.
exhaust ports could be ported more to help enhance power. I'm debating a self port job to try and squeeze some extra scavenging out of the head.
changes:
I already have good ideas for my next OEM 2.2 L61 bottom end. I'm removing the balance shafts this time and going to see just how far I can push it with better camshaft selection and REAL DYNO tuning.
the season isn't over yet...
best of luck man, and i can't wait to see what your about to do.
looks like you have your work cut out for you
good luck with the build man, i hope its awesome!
12.33 @ 111.67 mph [Oct 2009]
Dyno'd on 08/02/09 - Mustang Dyno:
327.6 WHP 333.6 WTQ [10.1 AFR]
I'd love to see you in a boosted application! Hell...you are .2 faster than I am (1/4 mile) and I have a SC!!
As they always say....Get'r done!
Eh...old man with a Corvette now...it was bound to happen sooner rather than later right?
is/was your entire valvetrain stock?
Listen F***ers. FASTERTHANAHONDA is a joke because I WORK FOR HONDA. I'll talk @!#$ about Fords to, that doesn't mean I can beat a 12 second mustang.
nope the valvetrain was upgraded.. the only stock components were the finger followers and the lash adjusters
DaFlyinSkwirl (PJ) - BPU++ wrote:nope the valvetrain was upgraded.. the only stock components were the finger followers and the lash adjusters
Just curious if there are any aftermarket lash adjusters or bigger ones or what is done differently on the ecotec drag car regarding the lash adjusters. I am not that familar with the engine but if they are easy to replace maybe you could just replace them before you think they might fail if you can't find better ones.
I wonder if the valve may have closed on the broken peice of ringland on the way out and the lash adjuster was weaker than the broken peice of ringland causing it to break. I do not know that engine well so I could be way off. Just a thought since it seems an odd coincidence it happen to the same cylinder.
FORGET GIRLS GONE WILD WE HAVE GOVERNMENT SPENDING GONE WILD!
already on top of the upgraded followers...
GM ECOTEC OHC Followers
Track tested and proven, these CNC machined heat treated alloy steel cam followers are designed to withstand the increased RPM and spring loads used in high performance EcoTec race engines. The patented nested needle bearing cam and valve tip rollers reduces friction and prevents galling of the valve tip. The body of the follower encapsulates the solid lash adjuster to help prevent disengagement at high RPM.
Standard Features
Needle Bearing Rollers on Valve Tip and Cam Follower
Reduces valve tip-to-follower friction
Allows the use of higher spring pressures & larger camshafts
Heat-treated steel CNC machined body
Greatly improved reliability over stock units
Lash Adjuster Posts
JESEL has designed our solid, adjustable lash posts to work in conjunction with our Ford Modular and GM EcoTec overhead cam followers. Each heat-treated, precision ground post is supplied with an assortment of shims to adjust for proper valve lash. The tip of this post is designed to stay engaged into the body of the cam follower. This lash post is available with extended tips for small base circle cams
www.jeselonline.com
and thanks for the input madjack
Cool Seeing how much aftermarket stuff you can get for the ecotec makes me wish I had one.
FORGET GIRLS GONE WILD WE HAVE GOVERNMENT SPENDING GONE WILD!
I'm a n00b on this, but I'm trying to learn as much as possible...
going with what MadJack said, and the fuel puddling issue in all 4 cylinders, it sounds as if your lean issue was unavoidable. possibly an incomplete burn? and the "puddle" finally ignited because of a hot spot from inefficient exhaust flow? is Patriot aware of your issue?
Desert Tuners
When you come across a big kettle of crazy, its best not to stir it.
those things are super sweet.
good luck PJ and hopefully I can help if needed
LE61T PTE6262 Powered
you had the patriot head right? guess those arent as bulletproof as we thought
Good thing the head is still useable otherwise that would have been alot of money down the drain
While its all apart its the best time to get the bottom end built
1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85
FReQ Z (CDM Z24 coming soon!) wrote:I'm a n00b on this, but I'm trying to learn as much as possible...
going with what MadJack said, and the fuel puddling issue in all 4 cylinders, it sounds as if your lean issue was unavoidable. possibly an incomplete burn? and the "puddle" finally ignited because of a hot spot from inefficient exhaust flow? is Patriot aware of your issue?
there's too many variables to easily narrow it down, but I doubt the patriot head is at blame.
jay and I are beginning to think that my injector spray pattern may be the culprit... but the overall problem is that in 2003 they changed the design of ecotec pistons for better emissions... by moving the topmost ring closer to the top of the piston... weakening the top ringland
also, I just got off the phone with Jesel...
if you're not sitting down... you should
to upgrade the head with the upgraded followers and solid lash adjusters is a whopping $2720.00
$170.00 per valve
looks like its time to start saving.. and replace with OEM for now lol
I definately think you should try some different cams with that hot spot.
Quote:
jay and I are beginning to think that my injector spray pattern may be the culprit... but the overall problem is that in 2003 they changed the design of ecotec pistons for better emissions... by moving the topmost ring closer to the top of the piston... weakening the top ringlan
so why not go down to 02 pistons? or upgraded ones?
My car may run 18s, but I can do your taxes in 10 seconds flat.
JBO lube - they would never have enough in stock and we'd never see RodimusPrime again
Machzel08 (Teh Jew) wrote:Quote:
jay and I are beginning to think that my injector spray pattern may be the culprit... but the overall problem is that in 2003 they changed the design of ecotec pistons for better emissions... by moving the topmost ring closer to the top of the piston... weakening the top ringlan
so why not go down to 02 pistons? or upgraded ones?
i want to get to 13s with an OEM bottom end... taking the balance shafts out isn't *that* big of a deal other than it can't be done with the engine in the car.. but otherwise... oem pistons and the like
there are some '02 blocks in my area... but weak pistons are a little bit easier to survive than weak rods
Rodimus Prime wrote:you had the patriot head right? guess those arent as bulletproof as we thought
i'm not sure what you mean... the head is fine? nothing's wrong with it.
the lash adjusters and followers are reused from the OEM stuff. patriot didn't include those with their head.
Quote:
Good thing the head is still useable otherwise that would have been alot of money down the drain
While its all apart its the best time to get the bottom end built
nope. i'm gonna try my hand at another OEM bottom end. gonna prove the factory crank pistons and rods can make it to 13s n/a
I don't see what you have to prove. None is arguing it cant be done. Besides you do not have a "stock" bottom end anyway. You removed the balance shafts and that is a big deal if you can not do it with the engine in the car, not to mention it is a major part of the stock bottom end.
You said "but weak pistons are a little bit easier to survive than weak rods" why not just eliminate both problems or at least one of them that being the pistons since I doubt your engine is going to make enough hp at this point to break rods from the power output of the engine. I can understand if it is because of money issues but just to prove a point to others seems foolish. Don't flame on me as this is only meant as constructive criticism.
FORGET GIRLS GONE WILD WE HAVE GOVERNMENT SPENDING GONE WILD!
Wade Jarvis wrote:I don't see what you have to prove. None is arguing it cant be done. Besides you do not have a "stock" bottom end anyway. You removed the balance shafts and that is a big deal if you can not do it with the engine in the car, not to mention it is a major part of the stock bottom end.
You said "but weak pistons are a little bit easier to survive than weak rods" why not just eliminate both problems or at least one of them that being the pistons since I doubt your engine is going to make enough hp at this point to break rods from the power output of the engine. I can understand if it is because of money issues but just to prove a point to others seems foolish. Don't flame on me as this is only meant as constructive criticism.
its moreso to satisfy my own curiosity. ben hit mid to upper 13s all motor, but on an engine with lower compression. to date, nobody's tried comp stage 3 cams on a factory 10:1 comp ratio motor.
to build this bottom end would be foolish since the liners are more likely than not out of round and the block definetly needs a trip to the machine shop. Not to mention, I'd want to build it for boost and to be honest there's too many other loose ends to tie up for the time being.. I'm not quite ready to turbocharge it YET.
besides, I have the LSJ block that I plan on using with my forged crap.
to get the car back on its feet in time for the end of the season would cost $500 for a whole new engine (head and all) most of which that I could sell off to make some of that money back.
believe me, I have more than enough money to do what I want... the $3000 jesel head upgrade WILL be done but there are other more pressing matters I feel like testing out.
hitting 13s n/a on an OEM bottom end (minus the balance shafts) is a goal I've set for myself.. and I want to hit that goal or else I'll feel like I've failed or something. I have a bench mark of 13.4 set by ben wenzel with the higher comp n/a ecotec in the red allecotec.com car
I want to see how close I can get to that without raising my compression or touching the bottom end (other than removing the balance shafts)
Removing the balance shafts sounds like a pain in the ass I know, but if you ever do a head swap on an eco, thats a bigger pain in the ass.
The only reason you can't do it with the engine in the car is because the frame rail on the passenger side blocks the shafts from coming out. Otherwise, its an operation that could be done while swapping heads since you get the primary timing chain out of the way (the major component blocking the balance shafts OTHER than the framerail of the car)
as faras proving 13's, you have go so fast on a BAD tune with a dying motor I think your point is already proven. at this point if it was me I would just let somebody else put up the number and take this oppurtunity to drop a biult block in there. justwhat I would do though
oh, and your exaust header is BAD ASS. what brand is that or did you have it made?
that exaust header looks almost perfect for any non turbo application(your primaries don't look equal length that is the one thing)
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Those so naive, so hard headed, so narcissistic, that think that buy their own efforts can single handedly change the world, are always the ones that do.
Cannot wait to see new times once the car is back together. Keep us posted!
2009 Ford Mustang V6
I'd also think to say you should get a pacesetter lsj header now the 4-1 would be better for top end seeing as thats where you make your power anyway
LE61T PTE6262 Powered
in the gm build book it shows how to use lsj rods and pistons in the L61 bottom end, i mean its still OEM parts just from another car
1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85
^^thats not a bad idea, especially since I happen to have a spare LSJ laying around...
Hmm interesting... Well PJ as I told you yesterday if you want me to head done there to help out I can
... O and Im getting that thing I told you about a couple of weeks ago. Its showing up this week just let me know when you wanna pick it up at the Jeffie's
