Dynamic Compression Ratio - Performance Forum

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Dynamic Compression Ratio
Tuesday, January 16, 2007 1:18 PM
So I have been talking to some of the JBO members who have some unreal knowledge and I think it is something that we all need to start learning about... not 9:1 compression or 10.5:1 compression (static compression), but rather take other things into account and come up with the dynamic compression ratio

I am not going to lie, I have heard the terms before and I barely Know anything about it, and that is where this thread comes into play. If We are all boosting our engine, running nitrous, or going all motor, we need to understand this. I have found some sites (google) that have calculators and some have downloadable programs... but I don't have any of the information I need to do the calculations.

Couple things I have learnt are 1)dynamic compression never changes regardless of boost pressure or engine RPM 2)dynamic compression ratios above 8.5:1 are NOT supported on super/premium pump fuel 3)we need to understand ever anlge and measurement on our cams to get this infomation.

Before moving on to the next steps please read over this and understand 50% of it @ 100%

http://www.empirenet.com/pkelley2/DynamicCR.html

I will start with a list of "crappy calculators" that do include any cam measurements:

http://www.wallaceracing.com/dynamic-cr.php
http://www.smokemup.com/auto_math/dynamic_compression_ratio.phphttp://www.rbracing-rsr.com/comprAdvHD.htm

and for the best one that I have found (download is 1.5meg)

http://cochise.uia.net/pkelley2/dcrvb6.zip




So that is pretty much what I have been going over but I can't find any of those cam specs on GMPP, the cam sticky, or any other site I have tried looking on.


HP Tuners | Garrett T3/T04B | 2.5" Charge Pipes | 2.5" Downpipe | 650 Injectors | HO Manifold | Addco front/rear | Motor Mounts | HKS SSQV | Spec stage 3 | AEM UEGO Wideband | Team Green LSD | FMIC | 2.3 cams | 2.3 oil pump swap | 280WHP | Now ECOTECED


Re: Dynamic Compression Ratio
Tuesday, January 16, 2007 1:35 PM
I made a spreadsheet to calculate the DCR, not too hard. If anyone has sent in a cam for a regrind, they measure it before grinding. Beyond static compression information, you only need to know your intake closing angle ATDC (can be found through ICL and duration) and your rod length. What lift point the intake 'closes' at (for all practical purposes) is debatable, I've heard to use the advertised numbers, and also seen 15 degrees after .050" mentioned. I've also seen one very advanced calculation that even considered valve lash.
Also, remember that 'pump gas' is dependent on region, we max at 91 here, which is considerably lower than 93.



fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
Re: Dynamic Compression Ratio
Tuesday, January 16, 2007 2:07 PM
Kind of a random thought but the reason the cam info is needed is because the longer the intake valve is open the more air is crammed into the cylinder causing a higher DCR. I remeber talking to Chris (SweetnessGT) and we found somewhere that the max on 93 was 23:1. probably is debateable but at that point it doesnt matter it will detonate and your only way to drop it down is to lower boost pressures.

Like i said a random thought!



Re: Dynamic Compression Ratio
Tuesday, January 16, 2007 3:07 PM
Nice info, want to post up the numbers you do know? Would a haynes manuel or something like that have the desired numbers?

PSN ID: Phatchance249

Re: Dynamic Compression Ratio
Tuesday, January 16, 2007 3:34 PM
DCR numbers are way beyond what any haynes or chilton manual will have... hell even the GM serivce manual will not have it due to the fact it will vary greatly from one setup to the next.... Hell even cam wear can change your DCR



Re: Dynamic Compression Ratio
Tuesday, January 16, 2007 3:44 PM
I understand that these numbers change with wear and setup..but getting a base line is better than nothing at all.. what is your DCR?? you seem to know all about it. (not knocking, but I don't know anything (really) about it and if you do I would love to learn)

but as for my setup.. these are the numbers I know, and some I don't, maybe someone could measure a stock cam or "secret" cam and post the numbers... I don't know how.

I have bore "3.54"
stroke "3.70"
head gasket bore "3.567"
conrod length "5.710"
head gasket "0.030" soon to be "0.074"
piston to deck "0.022" soon to be "0.066"


plus those specs you posted then I need to know

1) ADV intake closing angle
2) intake lobe seperation
3) Intake Lobe Center Line
4) dished piston cc displacement

hopefully some one knows where I can find those measurements or how to figure them out.


HP Tuners | Garrett T3/T04B | 2.5" Charge Pipes | 2.5" Downpipe | 650 Injectors | HO Manifold | Addco front/rear | Motor Mounts | HKS SSQV | Spec stage 3 | AEM UEGO Wideband | Team Green LSD | FMIC | 2.3 cams | 2.3 oil pump swap | 280WHP | Now ECOTECED

Re: Dynamic Compression Ratio
Tuesday, January 16, 2007 7:27 PM
ive barely even scratched the surface for DCR but im trying to learn as much as possible.

those measurements... the one you dont know... the T/G garage has some cams that i could measure as long as i have the info on how to do it



Re: Dynamic Compression Ratio
Tuesday, January 16, 2007 9:57 PM
I am not sure how to measure them either



HP Tuners | Garrett T3/T04B | 2.5" Charge Pipes | 2.5" Downpipe | 650 Injectors | HO Manifold | Addco front/rear | Motor Mounts | HKS SSQV | Spec stage 3 | AEM UEGO Wideband | Team Green LSD | FMIC | 2.3 cams | 2.3 oil pump swap | 280WHP | Now ECOTECED

Re: Dynamic Compression Ratio
Wednesday, January 17, 2007 1:42 PM
You can measure the cams using a degree wheel and a dial gage (they sell degreeing kits with everything).
You can measure your piston cc using some rubbing alcohol, glass sheet, and a syringe.
ge_forcez22 wrote:piston to deck "0.022" soon to be "0.066"

2) intake lobe seperation

Piston to deck is the distance from the piston edge to the block deck, so changing your headgasket will not effect this.
Lobe seperation is not needed for DCR calculation, it has no effect. "Intake lobe seperation" is constant at 360-degrees
Max DCR for a given grade is dependant on many other variables as well, chamber geometry, temperature, and spark being the biggest.



fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
Re: Dynamic Compression Ratio
Wednesday, January 17, 2007 2:23 PM
Quote:

Piston to deck is the distance from the piston edge to the block deck, so changing your headgasket will not effect this.
sorry man, I was thinking that meant quench distance, yah, my pistons are 0.008" outta the deck.. I was reading on forums and many GM's run frmo -0.010 to 0.0020... so that seems right in line.


HP Tuners | Garrett T3/T04B | 2.5" Charge Pipes | 2.5" Downpipe | 650 Injectors | HO Manifold | Addco front/rear | Motor Mounts | HKS SSQV | Spec stage 3 | AEM UEGO Wideband | Team Green LSD | FMIC | 2.3 cams | 2.3 oil pump swap | 280WHP | Now ECOTECED

Re: Dynamic Compression Ratio
Wednesday, January 17, 2007 2:43 PM
OHV notec wrote:You can measure the cams using a degree wheel and a dial gage (they sell degreeing kits with everything).
You can measure your piston cc using some rubbing alcohol, glass sheet, and a syringe.
ge_forcez22 wrote:piston to deck "0.022" soon to be "0.066"

2) intake lobe seperation

Piston to deck is the distance from the piston edge to the block deck, so changing your headgasket will not effect this.
Lobe seperation is not needed for DCR calculation, it has no effect. "Intake lobe seperation" is constant at 360-degrees
Max DCR for a given grade is dependant on many other variables as well, chamber geometry, temperature, and spark being the biggest.


By spark do you mean spark intensity or spark advance





Re: Dynamic Compression Ratio
Wednesday, January 17, 2007 3:42 PM
Quote:

Hell even cam wear can change your DCR


I'm confused. Per the one link posted DCR will never change with use of the motor. Once motor is built DCR is set.



FU Tuning



Re: Dynamic Compression Ratio
Wednesday, January 17, 2007 4:04 PM
Wrench Monkey wrote:
OHV notec wrote:Max DCR for a given grade is dependant on many other variables as well, chamber geometry, temperature, and spark being the biggest.
By spark do you mean spark intensity or spark advance
advance, mostly because it affects the temperature so much.
John Higgins wrote:
Quote:

Hell even cam wear can change your DCR

I'm confused. Per the one link posted DCR will never change with use of the motor. Once motor is built DCR is set.
I think he's referring to the ever so slight change in duration that would accompany major wear. However, since the important measurement is on the back of the ramp, wear would be at a minimum there unless you have major lofting going on. Regardless, it is so minimal that valve float would be more of a factor most of the time.

I also need to edit my first post, ATDC should be ABDC... typo seeing as ATDC wouldn't make much sense.



fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
Re: Dynamic Compression Ratio
Thursday, January 18, 2007 8:21 AM
Quote:

dynamic compression never changes regardless of boost pressure or engine RPM


It would change with varying rpm, and especially under boost.

VE most definatly changes with rpm, Peaking right around where peak torque would be.

Think of this as your DCR

DCR = X * Y * CR

X = air density
Y = VE
CR = static compression ratio

if your cars at idle, (just pulling out some numbers)...say MAP = 35 kpa and VE = 70% and static CR = 9.5 (and atmospheric press = 100kpa)
Then your DCR = 2.33

Now say at peak torque, Map = 100 kpa (full throttle) and VE = 95% with CR = 9.5
Then your DCR = 9.025

Now say Peak power, Map = 100 kpa (still full throttle) and VE = 75% with CR = 9.5
Then your DCR = 7.125

So, when you change anything to do with cam timing, induction, or exaust, you're just changing the VE (which is a variable with rpm).












2000 z24
1985 z28 http://www.cardomain.com/ride/825536
Re: Dynamic Compression Ratio
Friday, January 19, 2007 2:03 PM
Amen, you finally started listening to me. I've been preaching this stuff for a while... and this is what I've been saying when I say "Engines are math"..... and it's the #1 reason I haven't posted my mod list... everybody's goals and parts are different and they need to function as a unit... properly built motors with properly matched parts will have the best results.

Further to Dynamic compression, consider discussing effective compression for boosted motors... it will help garner an understanding behind choosing static compression for pistons... there are a lot of factors involved. (Skip you were touching on that with your post)

The reason cam specs are taken into account for Dynamic compression is because cam profiles affect the opening and closing of the valves and therefore the potential compression.

There are many factors to take into account when choosing a static compression for your pistons, even their design is a factor and the application you're putting them in.

Plenty of knowledge can grow from this post - I'll be watching it.

-Chris-



-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
Re: Dynamic Compression Ratio
Friday, January 19, 2007 2:19 PM
Quote:

DCR is derived from measured or calculated values that are the actual dimensions of the engine. Therefore, unless variable cam timing is used, just like the static compression ratio, the Dynamic Compression Ratio, is fixed when the engine is built and never changes during the operation of the engine.

Two important points to remember:

The DCR is always lower than the SCR
The DCR does not change at any time during the operation of the engine


I am not sure exactly how boost changes this fact.


HP Tuners | Garrett T3/T04B | 2.5" Charge Pipes | 2.5" Downpipe | 650 Injectors | HO Manifold | Addco front/rear | Motor Mounts | HKS SSQV | Spec stage 3 | AEM UEGO Wideband | Team Green LSD | FMIC | 2.3 cams | 2.3 oil pump swap | 280WHP | Now ECOTECED

Re: Dynamic Compression Ratio
Friday, January 19, 2007 2:34 PM
so this explains why changing cam timing affects performance? This is a realy good subject that i knew nothing of. i'll have to look into it mire




Re: Dynamic Compression Ratio
Friday, January 19, 2007 6:24 PM
RyZ96 wrote:so this explains why changing cam timing affects performance? This is a realy good subject that i knew nothing of. i'll have to look into it mire
We already covered this in one of the OHV threads that nobody else ever cares to look into



fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
Re: Dynamic Compression Ratio
Saturday, January 20, 2007 8:45 AM
Why use DCR??? Or SCR? Is ECR a real term?

The three basics forming the "why" of CR.

Power output is directly related to the amount of fuel and air reacted in the cylinder. Higher cylinder pressure at the right time means more work can be done by the piston. The hotrodder's goal is maximum fuel and air charge into the cylinder under the highest pressure prior to combustion.

For a given fuel of a specific octane rating there is a temperature which, when reached, causes the fuel to begin reacting without any spark input. Once this temperature is passed, the reaction continues violently and extremely quickly. Detonation, loss of power, possible engine damage are the result.

Temperature within a cylinder is directly related to the pressure inside that cylinder. Excess pressure causes excess temperature.

Now here's the "why."

You're a good little hotrodder and you're wanting to run the balance between maximum fuel and air charge under maximum pressure without exceeding autoignition temp. How to do it? Easy if you have an "in cylinder temperature gauge," right? Yeah, ok. Most of us will never see equipment able to do that job. Ahhh... but you know cylinder pressure is related to temperature. So you think "maybe I can figure out how much pressure is created by figuring out how much air is compressed in the cylinder." That shouldn't be too hard. The math isn't a big deal. You determine the volume of the closed cylinder including the volume of the combustion chamber, the volume of the head gasket when compressed, and the volume from the deck or top of the cylinder block down to the top of the first ring. Now all you need to do is compare the volumes with the piston at the bottom of the stroke and with the piston at the top of the stroke, and you can begin to calculate how much air is compressed by the piston as it sweeps from BDC to TDC. You tell your friends, they like the idea, they tell their friends, and eventually everyone is happy that they have a way to figure out how much compression is enough to kill an engine through detonation. And because they're good little hotrodders too, they constantly work to exceed what everyone else knows is safe. Welcome, Static Compression Ratio.

But you're realizing you may not have gotten it exactly right. First of all, the heat and pressure calculations using SCR are showing that somewhere between 8.0:1 and 9.0:1 should produce enough heat to cause loads of detonation. But that loudmouth punk on JBO is running 10.5:1 and getting away with it. Worse yet, he doesn't know Jack Schitt, so you know he's not some kind of super genius from the School for the Gifted. He must have gotten lucky, somehow. Finally a little voice says "umm... the cylinder isn't really compressing as much air as you think. It's only partially filled during the compression stroke, so the pressure and temperature are lower than the SCR leads you to believe." You begin to think about it and decide that the measurements for calculating compression, and the method, were completely right. But you need some way to estimate the amount of air which actually enters the cylinder to be compressed. After more thought you realize it's easy! Since the intake stroke is what determines how much air gets into the cylinder, and since the intake valve has to close before compression can begin, all you need to do is figure out where in the cylinder the piston is when the valve closes, and use that value for your new BDC measurement. To do this you've got to work out crank pin position and it's relationship to the piston position, and adjust those for the crank angle when the intake valve closes. When you finally get it you tell all your friends, and they tell all their friends, and eventually most of 'em say "that's too damn much math" and they stick with SCR. Oh, well. But a few of them get the concept that valve timing is a big deal in determining pressure at TDC, and eventually there's a whole lot of people running larger SCR numbers and using big cams to bleed of cylinder pressure at low rpm. At least the loudmouth punk finally got his a$$ kicked. Thank you Dynamic Compression Ratio

But something's still a little funny. You know that the compression stroke doesn't really begin until the intake valve closes. But you're trying to figure out how much pressure is created in the cylinder, and pressure depends on the amount of air in the cylinder. It's pretty obvious that a closed throttle won't let much air in, and there can't be much pressure created in that situation. The real kicker is that the loudmouth punk on JBO built a new engine running 12.5:1 with a mild cam and the engine hasn't blown up yet. "Obviously," you say, "his engine is also as dumb as a stump and can't see that the DCR is way too high for it to do what it's doing." Wouldn't it be nice if you could prove that this kid got lucky, again? The trick, you realize, is to do a better job of estimating the amount of air in the cylinder during the compression stroke. If you can apply a percentage factor, some way to scale DCR up or down for conditions with less or more air, then you would have a great comparison tool. You could even go over to the Honda board and tell them a thing or two about how your engine is really so different from theirs. So you think, and think, and think again. Maybe you even ask for a little help with this one. Now you're getting into air density and it's relationship to air temp, and you're working with moisture content and the mass of fuel. You're considering air velocity and the effects of compressing the air before it enters the cylinder. Heck, you're even considering temperature differences between the intake manifold and the head of the intake valve. And after all of these dizzying factors, after using MS Excel, hundreds of calculator batteries, countless sheets of paper, and even learning to use a version of Matlab you found on a warez site, you have one of those head slapping moments when it dawns on you that all you've done is calculate engine Volumetric Efficiency. Doh! So you tell your friends that they need to scale DCR with engine VE and then they can effectively calculate in cylinder pre-combustion temp so the fuel they're using never detonates. They tell their friends. Eventually everyone comes to the conclusion that you're not completely normal but you definitely seem to know Jack Schitt. Meanwhile the punk on JBO tries to prove you're a cousin to Dip Schitt by replacing his stock intake system and 2" exhaust with a 1000 CFM intake and open header, and he promptly blows the thing apart due to detonation. Ahhh, yes. Now that's what Effective Compression Ratio is all about.

Back to reality.
This is a really simplified presentation. The idea is that you can look at the articles referenced by the original poster above with some type of overview as to what they're doing and why.

The main reason to work with SCR when you don't have powerful analysis tools is to determine cylinder configuration. For example, trying to build a 3" bore, 3" stroke engine with 10:1 SCR using a 76CC combustion chamber and flat top pistons is an excercise in futility. It's not a practical engine and being able to work out the numbers may save you from wasting time and money on parts you can't use.

The main reason to work with DCR is to predict the fuel compatibility of the engine and to attempt to balance losses due to lowered VE.

ECR has different definitions in different articles. ECR is often interchanged with DCR. Because ECR as I've described it uses VE as a correction factor, I have always used ECR as a comparison tool, like using "corrected" horsepower to compare different engines. I may be using the wrong term for what I'm calculating, but the results it provides are useful nonetheless.

In all cases thermal efficiency is improved by increased compression ratios to the limit of detonation. Emissions considerations, however, often require lower than optimum compression ratios.

These articles are also very good. Any David Vizard article is worth a read. This one is much more in depth. This guy not only builds engine, but he has a superb understanding of why they work. Here's a simple description of DCR, and this article analyzes the method used in the DCR calculator from the previous article. This last one has plenty of math for burning up calculator batteries. Digest these articles in small bites with plenty of time to chew on what's presented. They do a good job of touching on "everything that an engine is about."

As a final note, I'd like to say while engines are math, there are plenty of guys that do a damn good jop of building a nice engine without knowing what to calculate to do it. Don't knock 'em for what they don't know since they may have spent years with trial and error methods. This type of learning can be invaluable! Use the math to understand why the engines they build are working without having to spend your life re-learnign the lessons they've learned.

-->Slow
Re: Dynamic Compression Ratio
Saturday, January 20, 2007 9:34 AM
did you write that whole thing??? *jaw drops*

really speaks to the difference that a nice big throttle body (or small body) will do on a very effiecent engine,


HP Tuners | Garrett T3/T04B | 2.5" Charge Pipes | 2.5" Downpipe | 650 Injectors | HO Manifold | Addco front/rear | Motor Mounts | HKS SSQV | Spec stage 3 | AEM UEGO Wideband | Team Green LSD | FMIC | 2.3 cams | 2.3 oil pump swap | 280WHP | Now ECOTECED

Re: Dynamic Compression Ratio
Saturday, January 20, 2007 9:49 AM
then

PSN ID: Phatchance249


Re: Dynamic Compression Ratio
Saturday, January 20, 2007 10:12 AM
ok, I am reading through all these pages and I will take some notes in point form here... if some things are taken out of context then you may have to read the article to understand it: (if you see a ** that is something I am thinking about)


-every 8-10 degrees F reduction in intake temperature is equivalent to adding one more octane number to the fuel. **(think water/meth here)

-For engines of my own utilizing a near-zero leakage ring package and intended for use with 93 octane fuel, I tend to set 190 psi as a lower limit with a preferable 200 - 210 psi target. For every octane number less than 93, the compression pressure needs to be about 5 psi less to avoid detonation under normal circumstances **(my 9:1 SCR is 190psi)

-Your first move toward utilizing higher CRs then is to use a 170-180 degree thermostat. **(@!#$ I still have stock)

-The very least you should do is to polish the chamber side of the intake valve to reflect heat but much better yet is to coat the valve with a thermal barrier to cut the amount of heat absorbed in the first instance. **(to reduce "intake valve" heat soak)

-I have run the static piston/head clearance down to as little as .024-inch in a 350 with stock rods and close-fitting hypereutectic pistons. The pistons just kissed the head at about 7,000 rpm.


-which is up to 10 degrees longer for highly leaded fuels ***(talking about timing advance--avaition fuel is leaded... thats why it prevents detonation)

-One of the advantages of using an overkill ignition system is that it allows the use of plugs with a cooler heat range than would normally be the case

1. Feed cold air to the induction
2. Keep water as cool as possible (170 F or less)
3. Keep the air cool in the intake ports
4. Put a heat-reflective shine on the outside of the intake manifold
5. Minimize heat transfer through the common exhaust/intake port wall
6. Keep fuel temperatures down (cool can)
7. Run with plugs a little colder than the minimum required
8. Use an ignition system that is gross overkill
9. Utilize as large a spark plug gap as possible
10. Use no more ignition advance than is necessary
11. Maximize quench action
12. Minimize head chamber volume
13. Use flat-top pistons if possible
14. Minimize under-hood exhaust heat--use coated headers
15. Do not ram in but vent out hot air through hood vents

-As a special note, consider that when a piston’s top surface reaches 600°f it is almost a guarantee that the engine will see detonation. So, Turbo Guys, you really need to run extra rich under boost to keep the piston temperature below 600°f. Nuff said! **(explains why the manifold only starts glowing about 2" out of the head.... the fuel heats up after it exits the head)

...thats all I can read for now, one more to go, I summed it up for people on a tight schedule....






HP Tuners | Garrett T3/T04B | 2.5" Charge Pipes | 2.5" Downpipe | 650 Injectors | HO Manifold | Addco front/rear | Motor Mounts | HKS SSQV | Spec stage 3 | AEM UEGO Wideband | Team Green LSD | FMIC | 2.3 cams | 2.3 oil pump swap | 280WHP | Now ECOTECED

Re: Dynamic Compression Ratio
Saturday, January 20, 2007 11:26 AM
Here is what I have taken away from reading this and the article in the first post. Disclaimer: I admit I know almost nothing about VE, been doing some reading about it recently but don't have a full grasp on it yet.

VE is a function of how well the air travels in a given space/volume. And it seems that VE in Skip's equations is the only variable besides SCR but that is set after the engine is built. So assuming I have a SCR that I want to use, then I "simply" have to try and create the right VE that matches the SCR to create the desired DCR. And since cams determine the flow characteristics of the head a lot, the majority of finding the right VE is down to cams, and tuning right? So how do I determine the right combination of lift and duration that is best for the SCR I have selected and thus get the right DCR in the end?

Sorry if that is confusing, I am just trying learn this stuff and attempt to apply it.

PSN ID: Phatchance249

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