Future plans for the Z - Boost Forum

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Future plans for the Z
Sunday, November 06, 2005 11:03 AM
Ok well I'll get right to it. I have a 2001 Cavalier Z24 2.4L Twin Cam 5 speed (pictures are in the cardomain link in my registry). It has 53k on it and I have kept it pretty clean from what most people tell me. Basically, the upcoming spring / summer of 06' I am going to be working my ass off to make as much money as possible (maybe over the winter too if i get really crazy). I will save about 1000$ just to last me until next year for gas money and what not, and the rest will go to my car. Here's the break down:

Budget - $2600-2900

Goal - All go, no show. (obviously that's why I'm here) I want clean exterior, plain and simple is the way to go IMO. What I am looking for from this post is just suggestions how you would start me off considering my budget, goal, and situation ( 17 years old and its my daily driver ) I think a realistic but challenging goal would be 250whp give or take.

I am posting in here because I am starting to get the feeling I'm bugging all the people on AIM waaay too much (although they've all been extremely helpful, Phil and M I N I O N thanks for bein so patient with me )

Thanks for any and all suggestions.

Please everyone, I have been reading this section for a while now and I've seen some of the threads being flamed / jacked to hell. So keep it clean I only wanna get some suggestions, not how much faster you guys are thanks~






Re: Future plans for the Z
Sunday, November 06, 2005 11:52 AM
I don't post here that often but I am happy to give some help wherever I can.

As you have the 2.4tc you've got some options. Boost for you could be either turbo or S/C.

S/C would be more within your budget if you could live with 200hp.

Paceperformance still has the GM S/C for the 2.4 for around 1,800 U.S I believe.

With this all you need are hand tools and a couple of friends to get her done.

The PCM reflash (done by GM dealer) takes care of fuel management so you don't have to worry about tuning. It's also responsive to minor mods such as header, exhaust, motor mounts etc, getting these with the S/C will definately improve HP and TQ.

Alchohol cooling is also an option to get the hp and tq near 250whp.

Turbo could be custom and save a little cash but when you add up quality componets (intercooler, fuel management, turbo, piping, etc) it tends to get expensive.

A turbo kit from HAHN would likely cost you over 3,000 CDN (I'm assuming you're Canadian). This would not include set up and fuel tuning.

A turbo install is not that hard but can be complicated and will result in some downtime
so you may need a spare car to get you around if you go this route.

Also you may want to consider strengthening your motor if you want to put down 250whp. If not then just be sure to tune it right if you go turbo, if you go S/C it's not too much of a concern.

There are many other options besides these but they would be the most reasonable for you.
Re: Future plans for the Z
Sunday, November 06, 2005 12:06 PM
Right now Im leaning much more towards turbo, because it has so much more potential. I was going to work with M I N I O N and custom build a turbo. Was thinking maybe it'd be better to build up the engine first, and then maybe in 07' put the turbo in, and the engine will be more prepared for anything I throw at it.



Re: Future plans for the Z
Sunday, November 06, 2005 12:10 PM
well if you only want 250whp...... just get a good tune and a nice stage 3 turbo set up.....

Hahn would your best bet..... but as a daily driver.... the gm charger looks sweet.......

and not to mention..... when you go FORCED INDUCTION your wallet will be emptied every 3 days with $50.00 worth of gas....... so as a daily driver..... mmmmmmmmm ... it's up to you ..... I got my cavi when I was 17.... it was turboed 222.3 whp from a 2200........ by the time I was 19 ..... take your sweet time ... if you just got the car.... learn everything you can about it before you do ANYTHINg ......

just so you don't waste time and Money.....

talk to SKILZ he is a 2.4 guru............

Lee


JDM Civic Hatch
Status: Parting Out Turbo Kit....
14.224 @ 102.01MPH @ 5.5psi.... 2.3 60'
Next: Civic JDM B16a2 w/GSR LSD Turbo - Goal 300whp 1400lbs...
Re: Future plans for the Z
Sunday, November 06, 2005 12:17 PM
Yeah that's why Im posting now, so that when I start accumulating money in like 6 or 7 months I'll have a relatively good idea what I want. I actually love the S/C idea, but I just hate the part where I'm so restricted. Are there different size S/C's? At least with turbo I know I can always go up in PSI, as long as everything can handle it. If I went S/C would be so much more convienent too cause I could do different mods next year set up for it, and then S/C in 07 or something like that. Thanks for the advice so far guys~





Re: Future plans for the Z
Sunday, November 06, 2005 12:27 PM
turbo has more potential overall and you're on the right track by building the motor first.

I don't know too much on tuning but there are alot of fuel managment options for you.

Stand alone (most expensive)

FMU + AFPR (middle of the road)

Piggyback (E-manage can be expensive with extra sensors)

Wait for the HP tuners software (unlocks PCM and allows for fuel/spark tune)

Turbo size and design (T3/T4 etc) is also a large decision.

Take some time and research what is best for you and what meets your budget.

Good luck on the project.
Re: Future plans for the Z
Sunday, November 06, 2005 12:28 PM
^^^ With an S/C you can get smaller diameter pulleys that up the boost.

Alot of the guys here are doing it and getting good results


<a href="http://www.liquidgeneration.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.liquidgeneration.com/quiz/images/Card_DarthVader.jpg" border="0"></a>
Sith rule
Re: Future plans for the Z
Sunday, November 06, 2005 12:32 PM
It sounds like you're on the fence still, and lee made a good point about gas mileage.

Look up BlackZ2401, he's building up his cavy for S/C and should be getting awesome results.

Here's a link to his build

link
Re: Future plans for the Z
Sunday, November 06, 2005 12:40 PM
Wow Thanks a ton silver lightning.

How far can S/C bring me as far as WHP?






Re: Future plans for the Z
Sunday, November 06, 2005 12:50 PM
I can't guess a limit but if there was one it would be around 300hp.

There are tons of options for the GM S/C

smaller pulley, port and polish with custom valve job, alchohol injection, header, exhaust custom flywheel and custom tuning (hptuners software) could get you very high numbers.

Of course then you would have to build the engine to be safer but still there is lots of potential with S/C but in the long run turbo will go higher if you spend enough (it will cost more with turbo though).

It really depends on how much you want to spend. S/C would be the best for a daily driver and the options for upping the hp are there. So you can stage it (sort of ) and buy upgrades when you have the dough.
Re: Future plans for the Z
Sunday, November 06, 2005 12:58 PM
Quote:

Of course then you would have to build the engine to be safer but still there is lots of potential with S/C but in the long run turbo will go higher if you spend enough (it will cost more with turbo though).


That's really what I'm looking for right there.

Yeah I realize turbo has more potential, but I doubt i'll reach the levels where I cant go any faster with a s/c anyway.

I guess I'm looking for like high 11's to mid 12's, roughly 250 whp, and a clean looking car that has some nuts and a nice rumble too it.

Thanks again for the advice guys, keep it comin

If I did decide to S/C would you suggest just building up the motor and everything first? Then in 2007 when I get the money put in the s/c?




Re: Future plans for the Z
Sunday, November 06, 2005 1:17 PM
It all comes down to how much money are you going to spend to make it fast?

A key thing to remember is that making and engine stronger doesn't make it indestructable , it just lowers the risk of damage due to detonation (pre-ignition/knock).

Building a motor will be an asset if you are going for fast times like those, although the GM S/C reflash runs super rich (designed to be safe) so there is not a big reason for building unless you want those high numbers.

There is also a point where the GM S/C injectors and reflash will not support extra mods. It would be at a crazy high hp and tq number though.

By that I mean there may come a time when you have maxed out the fuel supply by modding the crap out of the motor. It would take a heck of alot to get there though and surely you would be in high 200hp range.

But that is easily fixed by larger injectors and custom tuning, which you would have to do with a turbo from the begining.

A couple of people here know alot more than I do about this stuff esp the limits of the GM S/C injectors and reflash.

To summarize:

Build the motor as you are going all out for fast times anyway, it can only help you in the end (longevity).

Inquire about the limits of the GM S/C injectors and reflash and find out where you may have to spend more for fuel mods and tuning software. Again I believe this is in the very high Hp and tq range, probably over what you are going for but someone who knows more can tell you if I am right or wrong.

The S/C is a great starting point that is expandable in lots of ways, in any event it's a huge difference from stock and will increase with everything you put in it.
Re: Future plans for the Z
Monday, November 07, 2005 12:53 AM
Thanks man, I'm really glad that you are doing so mush research for yourself and willing to try so much on your own. You are doing everything right in my books. So let me give you some stuff to think about. (Oh yah.. I told him I was doing this ^_^)

THE WORD (so maybe it is an abreviation)CFM is going to come up more than anything else. Simply, it means cubic feet per minute; a measurement of flow. Other things that will show up are velocity and density. CFMs have a near direct relation to volume and an indirect relation to velocity. Things like intakes and port and polished heads I personally don't believe should be measured in CFMs alone because pretty much, the larger the volume, the higher the CFMS. You could strap a trashcan with a house air filter to your N/A throttle body and it will read higher CFMS than ANY intake on the market. You could port your head until a midget stripper could poll dance in the port on your valve stem and blow away even the most agressive race head on the CFM chart, but can that help to make INSANE power from a 1.3L geo motor? HELL NO! You have to put velocity in the equation if you are serious about making a lot of power.
Just as CFMs relate to volume, velocity relates directly to the level of obstruction. What is going to hurt the velocity is bends, abrupt walls and less than smooth surfaces. This plays serious rolls in intakes, heads and INTERCOOLERS.
Last is density. Density has a direct relation to both pressure and temperature. Pressurizing air does the exact same thing as chilling air does (that's right, turbos and nitrous bottles do the same thing just by different means. Pressurizing air increases the temperature - the enemy with turbos. I will get more into that when I talk about intercoolers. The optimum engine would re running off high CFMs pressurized cold air at constant velocity. That is why an engine will never be 100% efficient. What you are going to need to do is find a median with all of those things to get peak efficiency out of your engine. A well though out set-up takes everything into factor in design and leaves ABSOLUTELY NO COMPROMISE in tuning. Why?
Efficiency means horsepower!
All that said... here is a run down of a turbo system from air in to exhaust out and some things you should think about:

Let me start at the very beginning of the system for you. The intake.... Of course less of a restriction is optimal. The easier the turbo can pull the oncoming air, the more it can flow. Most serious drag racers run an open turbo... nothing filters the air but a compressor wheel that could suck in small children. That is OK for them because the design gets the turbo away from heat and extreme short term use wont sacrifice reliability. What you want with your turbo intake is to get the best supply of air you can away from the hot exhaust manifold/turbine/downpipe. You also don't wanto to place it somewhere that it can pick up water in the rain. You can use a heat shield and place the intake over the turbo, route it around behind the battery, just place a cone on the turbo (try and relieve temperature elsewhere (heat-soak is the devil)) or any other way you can think of. The shorter the intake, the higher the CFMs, the more bends, the lower the velocity, the longer the tube (more exposure to the hot intake piping) the less dense the air (maybe miniscule compaired to the heat generated from compressing the air.) Ultimately, the turbo's efficiency is more important than that of the intake, so the optimal set-up is no set-up..... just suck in cold air. Unfortunately with a 2.4 you are going to have heat soak issues with that set-up(compressor gets hotter and hotter making the charged air hotter and hotter and decreasing performance.) A good median would would be a short intake placing the cone right behind the battery

Of course the next part of the set-up is the turbo, but there is sooo much to learn there and the information is readilly available. This is something you should research on your own as is it the most important part of your system. Don't hesitate to ask questions either

The charge pipes come out of the turbo to bring the newly pressurized air to the throttle body. That can be a long distance with a 2.4, especially when you route them to the front for an intercooler first. Work the most gentle bends you can to maintain velocity. The size of your charge pipes can make a difference. Smaller = more velocity = faster spool and larger = more CFMs = more potential horsepower. Some people use small (maybe 2.25" charge pipes leading to the intercooler and then larger charge pipes (maybe 2.5") coming out to carry the denser but slower air to the throttle body. This is a good median.

There will always be a pressure drop in the intercooler because of the lost velocity. Larger intercoolers are going to have less of a pressure drop and therefor flow more CFMs.. BUT!... they can badly decrease your spool time if you don't select an appropriate intercooler for your application. Bigger is not always better in this case unless you are building a total dyno queen for peak HP numbers and nothing else. Basically intercoolers increas your efficiency by densifying air (cooling it back down.) Remember that pressurizing air causes it to get hot. Heat is thr key ingrediant to detonation/preignition. You don't want that. You want to lower your cylinder temperatures as much as possible fo reliability but do it as efficient as you can to keep that nice hp/tq curve. There are also three types of intercoolers to choose from. The first one is a water to air intercooler. This type circulates coolant around the air core. liquids have greater heat discipation properties than the air does but can only cool the air to close to the temperature of the coolant at its best. These are used in drag cars because of their ability to cool down HIGH (30-40psi) boost levels quickly to lower temperatures than an air to air intercooler can. You will be most likel using air to air.
I did say two more types, they are both air to air. One is a bar and plate and the other is tube and fin. Tube and fin designs are not very efficient and should be avoided where possible/practical because of the additional unnescessary preasure drop. bar and plate designs flow much better and cool roughly the same. Chose an intercooler taking spooling, flow, reliability, SPACE and your charge pipe diameters into consideration.

Your throttle body is very important because it is often the lowest flowing part of a system. The throttle body is all about maintaining velocity. Everything else just happens. Bigger is pretty much better in this case (up to a point of course.) The best case scenario would be if the throttle bore started at the same inner diameter of teh charge pipes and got larger going to the throttle plate (to keep the velocity even with the throttle plate in the middle as it is open. That is a best case..... Anything better that stock will do really. Just got bigger. I love seeing custom set-ups like the LS1 throttle body on a flange welded to an H/O intake manifold.
One thing I have never seen done but would be awesome is a roller barrel throttle body. This is a throttle body where instead of a butterfly plate on a axis in the middle of the bore, you have an entire cylinder on that same axis. The cylinder would have a copy of the bore machine through it. Close, that bore would point straight up, at WOT, you have a perfect path from the charge pipes to the intake manifold with NO plates or obstructions of any kind. THIS MEANS KILLER VELOCITY!
Usually this type of throttle body is used on ncreadibly expensive race engines like those built by cosworth for rally cars (2.0L 900hp twin turbo V8s running ONLY 5 PSI!!!!) It is expensive. That is why you only see the most advanced race cars running them. They also usually only came as individual throttle body (a separate TB for each intake manifold runner) ser ups where boost is controlled by a throttle plate at the entrance to the intake manifold instead of wastegates.

Intake manifolds for these engines are designed for optimal flow. Velocity stacks are used at each port before the throttle body to channel air to each cylinder. Lucky for you..... you just want to improve over stock. Chevy isn't paying you millions of dollars to optimize their engines (yet.) A good improvement over your stock manifold is the H/O manifold and you can bring the 56mm throttle body with it. There isn't much to talk about here unless you want to build a custom intake manifold. In thate case, Straight runners to hold velcity, velocity stacks at the end of each and a collection chamber at the end should do you well. The shape of the combustion chamber and location of your throttle body is arguable. I don't have time for dyno testing but if you want to do the bench work that would be awesome! Other changed in intake manifolds like runner length are more for naturally asperated cars.

Heads are tricky. Port it of course, match the ports to the intake manifold. Polish each of the ports unless you believe leaving them rough will help fuel to atomize more efficiently. That is another thing which is arguable. The twin cam head is simple. There are no radical bend or curves to worry about. Where the port splits into two to go into each valve, sharpen that edge so there is minimal turbulance. Also, a mutli-angle valve job would be in good order to assist in sealing and increase air velocity.

I'm going to keep cams simple and relevant to boost. Turbocharged... you need less lift on the intake because air is being forced in. Durration is good because you get to take advantage of all of tha velocity we've been fighting for. The exhaust side is the same way but lift is a little more helpful since you have more back-pressure than you ever would supercharged or N/A. Overlap is when the intake and exhaust valve is open at the same time. This is completely dependant on cam durration. The theory is that with N/A car you can pass some fresh unburnt air/fuel out the exhaust to help clear out the cylinder. Remember, the piston on goes up so high before the exhaust valve closes, you can't compeltely whipe exhaust out of the cylinder. This topic is exremely open for discussion in my books. Although it may be helpful to clean out the cylinder more you have maybe 1/100th of the mixture having been already burnt from the last cycle (10-15psi coming in.) I don't think it is worth that small amount of lost boost.
To be easy on you and cost effective, use the secret cams. Mike Karas used them if I recall correctly. They should do you great.

If you want to rev higher than stock, think about upgading you valves (great chance to over-size them,) lower crank sprocket (this is a recent developement in the J-body community,) springs, retainers, keapers, and your ignition system. There is so much to say here. I'll leave that for if you decide to in the future.

Your turbo manifold doesn't have a whole lot of options. You have a few brands or you could make you own equal length header. There are no companies right now that there are any quarrels with besides for maybe exploited racing if brian is willing to make a manifold. Let me tell you though, he is a good friend of mine is the quality in his products is out of this world. He is making my equal length header for my sunbird.
Since you are building the engine, you may wish to acquire an equal length header. They have more potential for power because of the harmony of velocity in teh system. Exhaust PULSES out of the head one cylinder at a time and this design helps harvest that principal in order to constantly keep exhaust flowing at the turbine. Log manifold spool faster simply because of temperature differential between the head and the exhaust. Equal length manifold allow EGTs to fall before it hits the turbine which again is great for high rpm POWER but can slow your spool otherwise.

Exhaust.... As much as people want to make it that way, this is not arguable. The best exhaust after a turbo is no exhaust. The least back pressure means a greater difference in pressure meaning faster spool and easier transfer of gas (yep.. that means CFM flow capabilities. Less back pressure means faster spooling and more peak power.

There are a few things I am taking out of order for simplicity of explanation:

Compression
You are running 9.5:1 compression from the factory. People are safely running upwards of 10psi on stock botoms ends. That means that 10psi is in teh cylinder and then compressing 9.5x over. A low compression engine has a lot less to compress an therefor revs easier. The engine is translating chemical energy (fuel/air) into kinetic energy (pressure.) The biproducts are exhaust and crank/flywheel momentum/power. With efficincy a primer goal, you are using ALREADY SPENT exhaust gasses (essentially free potential energy) and using them to create more power. Sounds nice doesn't it? Lowering the compression further allows you to harvest more of this "free energy" to make the same "perfect world" (100% efficient engine) horsepower but with much less loss of engine efficiency. If that doesn't make sense I can clear it up more for you.
A good median here would be to run maybe 8.5:1 compression and 15-20lbs of boost pressure.

Oiling... I just wanted to seriously recommend that since machine work is being done to the engine to install new forged pistons, you might as well have the machine in the 2.3 oil pump. The 2.3 oil pump is twice as large and the 2.4 pump (which makes up for its difference by spinning twice as fast.) It is MUCH more reliable and that is exactly what you want with such an investment. You also get the added bonus of rotating mass weight being loss with will give the engine the ability to rev that much fast.

THERE IS WAY MORE THAN THIS BUT I HAVE BEEN TYPING FOR HOURS AND I AM TIRED.
Too long to even proof read......



Cardomain|Myspace

Re: Future plans for the Z
Monday, November 07, 2005 12:56 AM
I still have to cover tuning.fuel systems, Blow off valves, wastegates iginition systems (more specifically timing) and additional power adders....
If there is anything else you want me to cover just say so and I will give it a paragraph or two as soon as my finger tips heal from this post.....



Cardomain|Myspace

Re: Future plans for the Z
Monday, November 07, 2005 5:04 PM
Thanks everyone for the suggestions and advice really helped open my eyes up. However, as you can see M I N I O N here is kinda taking me under his wing. Just cant wait to get my hands dirty now! Until then, research research research (never ends lol, and ive only just begun)



Re: Future plans for the Z
Thursday, November 10, 2005 5:27 PM
After reading MINION's post quite a few times, I took down some notes and also noted questions I have. Going to post it on here in hopes it will help out others possibly in a similar situation as myself.

Quote:

Of course the next part of the set-up is the turbo, but there is sooo much to learn there and the information is readilly available.

My range is probably 15-25 PSI. If I had to be more specific, I think I would have to go down to 15-20 instead of 20-25, as I dont think that is really too reasonable for now. Suggestions?

Quote:

Some people use small (maybe 2.25" charge pipes leading to the intercooler and then larger charge pipes (maybe 2.5") coming out to carry the denser but slower air to the throttle body. This is a good median.

I have read quite a few times around here that people were running 2.5'' to the intercooler, and 3'' for the rest of the exhaust. Would 2.5'' be too restrictive?

Quote:

Chose an intercooler taking spooling, flow, reliability, SPACE and your charge pipe diameters into consideration.

What would be a correct size for 15-20 PSI, with charge pipes roughly 2.25 - 2.5 (depending on your answer above)

Quote:

The best case scenario would be if the throttle bore started at the same inner diameter of teh charge pipes and got larger going to the throttle plate (to keep the velocity even with the throttle plate in the middle as it is open.

Is this reasonable? Was under the assumption a decent TB would be just to send my stock TB in and get it bored out.

Quote:

I love seeing custom set-ups like the LS1 throttle body on a flange welded to an H/O intake manifold.

Feasible? Custom usually means cheaper / more efficient, is this true in this case?

Quote:

There isn't much to talk about here unless you want to build a custom intake manifold. In thate case, Straight runners to hold velcity, velocity stacks at the end of each and a collection chamber at the end should do you well. The shape of the combustion chamber and location of your throttle body is arguable. I don't have time for dyno testing but if you want to do the bench work that would be awesome!

Sounds really good, and I'd love to be more and more custom in anyway possible especially if this is once again more efficient. Again, is this possible to accomplish given my situation?

Quote:

Port it of course, match the ports to the intake manifold. Polish each of the ports unless you believe leaving them rough will help fuel to atomize more efficiently.

How would I determine whether or not leaving them rough will help the fuel atomize more efficiently? How exactly do I go about P&P'ing, something I can work on with someone, or is their machinery required?

Quote:

Where the port splits into two to go into each valve, sharpen that edge so there is minimal turbulance. Also, a mutli-angle valve job would be in good order

What do you mean exactly, sharpen the edge of the port that splits into each valve? What does a multi-angle valve job consist of?

Quote:

To be easy on you and cost effective, use the secret cams.

So not much else to the cams, other than the secret swap?

Quote:

Let me tell you though, he is a good friend of mine is the quality in his products is out of this world. He is making my equal length header for my sunbird.

Hopefully when the time comes around and I start doing the work for my Z, we'll be able to look into grabbing an equal length header and manifold from him.

Quote:

A good median here would be to run maybe 8.5:1 compression and 15-20lbs of boost pressure.

How do I go about lowering my compression exactly?

Quote:

Oiling... I just wanted to seriously recommend that since machine work is being done to the engine to install new forged pistons, you might as well have the machine in the 2.3 oil pump.

The 2.3 I see bein swapped alot, will do more research on that. Forged pistons, have to send these away? How do they help?

Finally, just a few questions I thought up throughout the day, some I'm sure you had intentions of answering eventually.

-Rims - 16''s or 17''s? Preferablly 17's, and I know there are light weights, any good? Or are 16's necessary to prevent me being restricted at all?
-Suspension - Few options here, I know you suggested Teins off of ebay.. any other possibly better options for this setup?
- Other things to be mentioned -
------------- Blow Off Valves
------------- Turbo Trim??
------------- Turbine??
------------- Ignition Systems
------------- Wastegates
------------- Fuel setup
-------------- Tuning

That just about wraps it up......I apologize for such a long post to anyone who doesnt care. Hopefully this information will be able to help some people.Finally two important notes...First, my apologies for any of the extremely newb questions, as I am not sure of some of the information that is extremely obvious Secondly, HUGE thanks to MINION for being so helpful everyday, having so much friggin patience, and always being my #1 go-to guy! This board is lucky to have you



Re: Future plans for the Z
Friday, November 18, 2005 5:18 AM
Sorry it took so long to reply. You know I have been working like crazy onthe sinbird. Anyway, to answer your questions:

""My range is probably 15-25 PSI. If I had to be more specific, I think I would have to go down to 15-20 instead of 20-25, as I dont think that is really too reasonable for now. Suggestions?"
-T3 .48 a/r 50 trim turbine, T4 .60 a/r 60 trim compressor - perfect for your boost range

"I have read quite a few times around here that people were running 2.5'' to the intercooler, and 3'' for the rest of the exhaust. Would 2.5'' be too restrictive?"
-2.5" charge pipes are great. They are not restrictive at all. Your exhaust should be 2.5"-3"... don't confuse the two, charge pipes channel pressurized air to the throttle body from the turbo, exhaust pipes take exhaust gasses away... Two different things.

"What would be a correct size for 15-20 PSI, with charge pipes roughly 2.25 - 2.5 (depending on your answer above)"
-Go big... wont hurt...... Look up SSautochrome on ebay for your intercooler. That is the ONLY thing they are good for. Don't even consider one of their turbos.
I can send you links if you need when you are ready to order.

"Is this reasonable? Was under the assumption a decent TB would be just to send my stock TB in and get it bored out."
-A stock TB bored out isn't going to hurt you too bad at 15psi. If you build the head though, diffinately look into a TB significantly larger than stock.

"Feasible? Custom usually means cheaper / more efficient, is this true in this case?"
-Yes and yes/no. It is cheaper if you do the work yourself. If you have a tig or aluminum migset-up then you could do wonders for much cheaper than buying a large one. I'll see what I can do for you in that department.

"Sounds really good, and I'd love to be more and more custom in anyway possible especially if this is once again more efficient. Again, is this possible to accomplish given my situation?"
-If you are already doing a custom TB set-up then why not? This can be expensive though. The guy I get my velocity stacks through charges I think $40 a piece. They have to be precision machined or else they are pointless. All in all, the parts alone to build the manifold would run around $250... still cheaper than the Venom....

"How would I determine whether or not leaving them rough will help the fuel atomize more efficiently? How exactly do I go about P&P'ing, something I can work on with someone, or is their machinery required?"
-It is arguable. Some people do rough and some pollish... I've neer seen proof f the effectiveness of either. Whatever you do, mirror pollish the exhaust, it keeps carbon build up down and you don't need to atomize exhaust gasses. P+Ping should be left to experienced people. I can do your head if it comes down to it but just know that you will be sitting around collecting aluminum shavings on your body for a looooong time.

"What do you mean exactly, sharpen the edge of the port that splits into each valve? What does a multi-angle valve job consist of?"

-That is the best picture I have durring some port work on the 086 head for my drag car. It is very close to what your head looks like. Notice that there are four valves to a cylinder. Each valve rests on a seat. There are two intake valves yet only one intake runner going into the head. Each port splits into two.. one to each valve. There is a dividing wall inside the head. You sharpen that so the it is cutting the air as it is forced into the engine. This helps hold velocity.
The valve seats are the mating surface of the valve when closed. A standard head comes usually machined to accept the valve exactly. A multi-angle valve job means you cut 3-5 (usually) angles (so it resembles a velocity stack) to allow better flow and a better seat.

"So not much else to the cams, other than the secret swap?"
-There is a lot more to cams. This like turbos is something that you are going to need to do a lot of research on. Just like turbos as well, research from a multitude of sources to see the views from all sides isntead of one.
Secret cams ARE easy and proven though. I recommend them.

"Hopefully when the time comes around and I start doing the work for my Z, we'll be able to look into grabbing an equal length header and manifold from him."
-Yes indeed. I will show you the one for the bird soon.

"How do I go about lowering my compression exactly?"
-You can either offset the grinds of the rod journals on the crank to change the stroke, enlarge the combustion chamber, install shorter rods or pu dropped compression pistons in. Pistons are the norm.

""The 2.3 I see bein swapped alot, will do more research on that. Forged pistons, have to send these away? How do they help?"
-Do research the oil pump. Forged pistons are stronger and leave you with mre room for error. The downside is you have to let the engine warm up before you drive. Don't build an engine without going forged rods and pistons.

I will answer the sepparate questions later... I have to get a little sleep.



Cardomain|Myspace

Re: Future plans for the Z
Friday, November 18, 2005 8:37 AM
I think this post has gotten way off track. This guy wants to make "250whp give or take" with a "$2600-2900" budget. All of a sudden people are talking about building motors, huge turbos and running 20 psi and stand alone PCM's.

If you want 250ish whp, the GM supercharger is not going to get you there, unless you use nitrous with it. The M45 (GM s/c) will be maxed out at 320cfm pushing 10 psi @ 14,000rpm. You can do whatever you want to the motor, but with a limited amount of air flow you just won't be able to make the power you want.

In my opinion turbocharging is your best bet. A basic intercooled turbo system at 10 psi should me able to meet you needs in terms of hp. The best part is, you have a 2001 Z24 so you will be able to use the GM s/c PCM reflash along with the 2 bar map sensor and injectors from the kit. That will pretty much cover all your tuning needs, taking most of the hassle, headache and error of other tuning devices. In my opinon the best sized turbo for your needs would be a T3 60 trim or "Super 60" with a .63 turbine a/r. A little searching around on this site will be able to privide you with all the other info or parts you'll need to complete the set up, good luck.


- 93 mph in the 1/8 mile
Member of J-Body Of Michigan.

Re: Future plans for the Z
Saturday, November 19, 2005 10:40 PM
The Gm Super is a great kit. Has alot of potential and it is reliable. The M62 kit i have in the works will hit the 250hp mark no problems, but there is one issue. Your will need the correct supporting mods to run that power. Hell with a worked head and built short block you should be able to hit the 300 hp mark. But its all in gettin it set up right and using the right parts. If you want a reliable 250hp you have to invest more then 2,600, just the nature of the beast. BTW I am the builder of Black's car. His Z24 is the prototype car for what the M62 kit will be goin on. it will start at 10lbs then later get bumped to 15lbs . But he already has a bult shortblock, Cams, Stainless valves, I ported the head. 62 mm T/B and so on.


2002 Z28: Slp coldair Pac, Corsa Catback, 3200 stall

Re: Future plans for the Z
Sunday, November 20, 2005 7:27 PM
Unfortunatelty I have been looking into leaving my current cavalier stock, and possibly buying another car as a project car. Just hesitant to work on my daily driver in general, because i know sh** happens and wouldnt want to be left with nothing to drive. I originally was looking at maybe a 240sx or 1g DSM. However lately, I have been enticed by the idea of maybe working up a good ole american muscle Maybe an older trans am or even a Buick GNX. Who knows where I'll end up, for now I'm just savin.



Re: Future plans for the Z
Sunday, November 20, 2005 8:22 PM
DGabe24 wrote:Unfortunatelty I have been looking into leaving my current cavalier stock, and possibly buying another car as a project car. Just hesitant to work on my daily driver in general, because i know sh** happens and wouldnt want to be left with nothing to drive. I originally was looking at maybe a 240sx or 1g DSM. However lately, I have been enticed by the idea of maybe working up a good ole american muscle Maybe an older trans am or even a Buick GNX. Who knows where I'll end up, for now I'm just savin.



mmmmmm 240sx with SR20DETT swap + rear whell drive = cream in my pants....... if I were to do ANYTHING .... that is what I would do !!!!

Lee


JDM Civic Hatch
Status: Parting Out Turbo Kit....
14.224 @ 102.01MPH @ 5.5psi.... 2.3 60'
Next: Civic JDM B16a2 w/GSR LSD Turbo - Goal 300whp 1400lbs...

Re: Future plans for the Z
Sunday, November 20, 2005 8:23 PM
DGabe24 wrote:Unfortunatelty I have been looking into leaving my current cavalier stock, and possibly buying another car as a project car. Just hesitant to work on my daily driver in general, because i know sh** happens and wouldnt want to be left with nothing to drive. I originally was looking at maybe a 240sx or 1g DSM. However lately, I have been enticed by the idea of maybe working up a good ole american muscle Maybe an older trans am or even a Buick GNX. Who knows where I'll end up, for now I'm just savin.



mmmmmm 240sx with SR20DETT Red top swap + rear wheel drive = cream in my pants....... if I were to do ANYTHING .... that is what I would do !!!!

Lee


JDM Civic Hatch
Status: Parting Out Turbo Kit....
14.224 @ 102.01MPH @ 5.5psi.... 2.3 60'
Next: Civic JDM B16a2 w/GSR LSD Turbo - Goal 300whp 1400lbs...
Re: Future plans for the Z
Sunday, November 20, 2005 9:24 PM
Well, turns out, after talking with many people and reading quite a bit of forums I've decided that at this point in time a project car just isnt feasible. I will be sticking with my own cavalier, but instead of rebuilding the engine like I wanted (which originally made me scared of working on my daily) i will be building a basic custom turbo and going from there. Who knows where i'll end up (hopefully 270whp or more after seeing some of other peoples numbers, i think its possible) but I guess i will just go read "Maximum Boost" until I can recite most of it (thanks Spotabee). Thanks again everyone for all the advice, I'm just so on the fence about everythitng, and think about what im going to do waaay to much considering the lack of money I have So from here I'm just going to go research and research and time will tell what I end up doing. Take care everyone~~ I'll keep you posted on what I end up doing.

p.s. - I apologize for any grammatical errors, it's really late and I have still have studying to catch up on. Once again, thanks everyone for all the advice / suggestions you have all continuously offered.



Re: Future plans for the Z
Monday, November 21, 2005 2:34 AM
^^^^^^You sound too depressed in that post. Why be sad boosting your cavy?


Anyway..... SR20DETs really aren't all they are cracked up to be. There are so many better nissan motors you could go with if you decide to get a 240 down the road. I'd either source an RB20DET or RB25DET front clip to work off of. They all came with ceramic ball bearing T3 turbos. So did the VG30DET.... don't get the DETT though. The later model RB20DET in the Type-M R22 came with a kick-ass Nissan 16V turbo (the one I am using) that has a larger compressor than the older models did. It also has a full ceramic turbine wheel. The downfall is that you can only max out around 12PSI but it flows very nicely so it doesn't need much more.
This is also a good turbo for you cav should you do a cheap turbo set-up. I can hook you up with a Nissan Ball bearing turbo really cheap if you want. I am breaking my 2.0 engine in with a Nissan 16V turbo with HKS wheels and wastegate, then I am swapping over to the larger 45v1 ball bearing turbo from a VG 300zx and swapping out for my HKS wastegate.
Good stuff.



Cardomain|Myspace

Re: Future plans for the Z
Monday, November 21, 2005 6:03 AM
I'm not depressed, but just fed up more or less. I have gone around and just gone through so much, from building my engine internally, project cars first with comapct then american muscle, now I'm back to my car. I just want to start workin on my car I'm sick of askin what to do and still waiting for money. It's alright, once I turbo my Z i'm sure I will be happy with it. Also if I go with a smaller turbo maybe 8psi to start with, hopefully that will leave some money for maybe some interior / exterior work for fun. So we'll see what the future yields for me Thanks again everyone for all your help, and patience with me.



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